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RETURN of Great Walls Discussi
14:06:28 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Thunder:

Ok put your thoughts and chatter here...


14:21:56 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Deadpool:

With the current map and no good places to place blockers I think zeta should bring back the walls.


14:29:52 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Thunder:

I agree... the smaller map and removal of walls takes out the strategy and it just becomes a free for all where the guys with the most friends win...


14:32:14 Apr 23rd 08 - Lord Legandary Zucox:

teh guy who has more strategy will win the map.. imigine small map full with stupid walls... you won't even be able to move ...  dot'n try to hide behind the wall..


14:38:50 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Thunder:

how do you figure that Zucox??? What strategy have you seen at all this era? Seriously...it is attack, attack, attack...no strat at all...

This era was like a battle royal in wrestling...

DB did well, they had a ton of members and allied with Sheol and Trio who all had a bunch of great players...


Nobody had any hope...that is not strat...

The only strat would have been that as soon as OOP occured EVERY SINGLE KINGDOM hit DB trying to kill them fast... Very much like when everyone rushed Andre the Giant, with him (or DB) gone, it becomes more balanced...

However allying with Sheol & Trio...prevents even that... I do not think that anybody, even all kingdoms combined could stop that sort of firepower... There is no strategy in that whatsoever...


15:08:03 Apr 23rd 08 - Lord Legandary Zucox:

Thunder.. i dotn' kow which kingdom are you in..  IF the great wall idea is bad people like archi, roxy will talk about it since last era...  I may wrong but I guess you went to fantasia for this era as first time.. if you look at the map carefulyy and if you have enough strategy ot skill.. there is only 3 places you need to build block cities..
tell me what's good about great wall...  I might wrogn but this is te fact i can think of..
1. build walls
-merge all armies into one
-gone inactive for 12 hours.. without hesitation of being attacks
==========
seriously.. what you gonna do with great wall??  tell me some good thing about great wall...


15:10:40 Apr 23rd 08 - Sir Hiding:

i hate great walls................makes too many stalemates.


16:04:24 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Izulien:

Yes bring back the great walls...makes for better strategy.


16:21:51 Apr 23rd 08 - Sir Hiding:

strategy of sending troops to the same blocker and farming?... i think not.

 

if we are really to have a petition, bring back old interface!!!!


16:35:17 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Deadpool:

But now its such a small map (and with this new map) it makes sense. Walls = Good!


16:53:38 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Atreides:

Walls don't help anything.


16:56:40 Apr 23rd 08 - Sir Hiding:

so, the map is smaller so ur troops don't even have to travel nearly as far. great idea!!!!  not...


16:56:41 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Squiddy:

The main problem here is that the game has not changed to make up for walls being taken out and the original game was not tweaked enough to make walls work nicely.

The thing is, this is a game. Which means that people cannot be on 24 hours a day, it's not humanly possible. To rely on someone not being online is a pretty retarded and very lame strategy if you ask me.

There needs to be a balance because currently it requires way too much activity to get anywhere, which is not very strategic on Zetas part because all it means is that those with nothing else to do but play VU all day are going to win, almost every time, which also means that he is going to lose a lot of players.

I think the easiest solution to this problem would be to bring back walls, but force a limit on them. What type of limit I have not come to a conclusion as of yet, but to get the ball rolling here would be a few good examples.

KD Wall limit

Now, this could simply be a hard limit, i.e. 5 walls per KD, but it could also be based around other things such as KD members in each KD, although that would be easily exploitable IMO.

Wall price increase

Walls should not simply be able to be placed anywhere, at any time. While that's not possible in the first quarter of the era it's definitely possible afterwards. The price should increase regardless of what else happens or what other ideas are implemented.

Scalable Wall Prices.

Much like the formula the military units of VU use, the more walls you have, the more expensive they become. Even then a wall limit would be advisable.

Discuss... :P


17:53:09 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Deadpool:

I totally agree with Squiddy and I think I made a post stating this in the last wall discussion. Bring them back.


18:07:00 Apr 23rd 08 - Sir Binh The Demolisher:

If walls were to be brought back, Wall max % bonus should be around 20%- 30%. Blocking a huge passage with 100% bonus defense is way too much of an advantage.

Walls price: To prevent *beep*ming of walls, the price of walls need to increase after a wall was built from any players. For example, the first kd built first wall at normal price, the next wall will cost twice as much, the third wall will cost 3 times as much and so on. No kd will be able to *beep* wall if cost are to increase in this manner even with kd switching, and any other abuse that people can think of.


18:24:23 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Deadpool:

Why not just limit the number of walls per KD that prevents the river jumping plus more strategy of where and when to place walls and limits the sp@mming of walls all over the map.


18:29:32 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Xerxez:

Sounds to me as if some oen from Carnage has sore feelings about being hit OOP and not realizing that you can't sit and whore for 1/2 or 3/4 of an era before you decide to go on the offensive. Personally I've never played with walls, but from everything I've been told and have come to understand about them they lead to nothing but stalemates gifting those players who don't really play or are more inactive. From all the discussion I've seen on teh walls it seems as if a lot of people have good suggestions on them but as stated before i can't really make any judgement calls as I've never played with them. But, here is my suggestion if you want walls back continue to petition ZeTa and continue to make suggestions that make them workable and balance the game play instead of favoring one type of player over another.


20:06:09 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Atreides:

No matter what limits you put, the only things walls accomplish is turning the game into a "who can have more troops" contest. Troops placement and activity won't matter....magic will be weakened...and the only warring possible will be merge vs. merge.

I think what needs to be done instead of bringing back limited walls, is limiting merges. And possibly removing free upkeep in allied cities.


21:01:55 Apr 23rd 08 - Lord Legandary Zucox:

well.. after reading this.. i still can't find any reason why should we bring back the wall... people are just saying bring the wall .. bring the wall.. it's like barking without any reason ...
yeah.. it stated that.. Fantasia is for most hardcore (very active) players...
Mantrax is for a bit less active players.. Zeta is for less hard core players.. and the rest are not new players..
IF you think your kingdom has a lot of inactives, go to smaller world or take an era off like what Abydos did..
if you think your kingdom doesn't have enough hardcore players go to smaller world like AAA did..
it's simple is that.. people want to take pride on playing at fantasia.. and they still want to hide behind the great wall... that's ridiculous..  this is Waring game.. not farming game...
you are talking about strategy.. what the strategy of having wall???  as i stated before, you will hide behind the wall, do farming.. and merge into big army.. and well.. go head to head and big army will win... is that what you call strategy???
without wall, you will have to defend the cities... when you attack your enemy, you will first cut off his economy..by attacking defenceless cities... freeze his army on battlefield.. well.. there is still alot of strategy that i dotn' want to share.. because of the strategy wise, Zeta take off burn and destroy attack.. so you need to balance out your strategy..
in old fashion, you will build the wall.. hide and farm, destroy the unnessary cities to keep lower training cost.. that's not strategy.. the strategy is how will you balance your economy, and how will you defend your existing cities.. and how will you train your troops balancing.. and how will you attack and win your opponent...
====
someone tell me if what i said is wrong.. if you can point out one thing.. well.. i will agree you to bring back the wall

====


22:30:37 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Elfy:

i dnt think walls should b brought back either but if they were i fink:

  1. To place a wall u have to have an army in the place where the actual wall city would be an a trasparent template would come up of the wall on either side. Then just as wit a normal city where u put walls in it, u have to actually build the walls from this special city an slowly parts become solid as theyre built up.
  2. Now if you can see sumtin like dis happening humans can send catapults to dispose of it or use the crush wall spell which will be adapted to work on these but only when still in construction. You could also attack the actual city before the wall goes up.
  3. A wall city would cost like 2mil gold, 200k wood and 200k stone, doubling with each new wall city in the kingdom. Once 3 kingdom wall cities are built no future walls can be made at all, not even if you destroy/loose one of your old ones, and the only way to get other wall cities would be to conquer them. Also if the burn an destroy option is to be brought back (which i think it should) then wen used the ENTIRE wall will crumble.
  4. On top of that only a 10% bonus is given and walls cant touch/intersect/come to close to another wall city or wall. 

 I still dont think walls should be brought back but if they are they need some major improvements..


23:38:53 Apr 23rd 08 - Mr. Karalius Mindaugas:

I like what squiddy said. Me and my KD mates don't have the time to sit at VU all day, and yet we are good enough to be in Fantasia. Bring back teh walls, but cap them somehow. Furthermore, the smaller map makes it even harder. Last era you could be semi active, as kingdoms were quite far from each other. Right now you either are hyperactive or you only log in to see your cities to be gone after the night.


01:57:03 Apr 24th 08 - Lord Legandary Zucox:

well.. like i said before.. just tell me one good reason to bring back the wall..Mr. Karalius Mindaugas hardcore doesnt' mean you are good or not.. it means you are active,(log in all the time), skillful.. and know about tactic and strategy..  I see so many good old players who are playing in smaller world.. because they can't be too active..  that simple thing.. if you want to be in fantasia, just play 24/7....  believe me , in smaller world you can do whatever you want, even you are not active enough... i think one guy is trying to take the map alone in Zeta.. he did good..  which shows me that in small world people are not active enough.. oh by the way, the way you or your mate(I am not sure) did was really nasty. try to be vice and kicking everyone in the kingdom.. that's nasty way to do such fighting....


01:57:45 Apr 24th 08 - Mr. Squiddy:

Zucox, it's all well and good saying that people are only complaining because it means they can't farm but that's really not it at all.

No walls = much more activity. You either can be only 18 hours a day, or you can't. The vast majority can't which means that their level of skill is entirely irrelevant because they aren't online enough to be able to put their skills to use.

Oh and for clarification, being able to play 18 hours a day is NOT skill.

Another idea which would help stop walls being lame, is for the wall to be attackable at any point, with penalties.

For instance, attack the city and suffer regular penalties for attack a city or, attack the wall, which has a set amount of DP, (might be an interesting feature if you could upgrade walls), in which you need more OP than the wall has DP to be able to successfully destroyed.

If you succeed, either a small gap in the wall could be made, (I'm sure zeta can think of something), or the whole wall is brought down and only the city is left. Less realistic, but less effort involved.

I would also love to see actual siege units play a part in this game, ya know, especially around the "siege" part of medieval wars.....


17:41:00 Apr 27th 08 - Mr. Bob Loblaw:

Wall science, huge wall upkeep stone and gold, everything else has sciences and upkeeps, why should walls be any better? Walls were just too over powered, just made people turtle up. Add wall science and upkeep, it will slow down dwarves. who else has the money for that? The beginning of the eras will still be most troops wins, but once established "wall strategy" can be put into work. walls could increase attack too. or perhaps increase counterattacks or something along those lines


23:10:36 Apr 28th 08 - Mr. Periannath:

Wall Siege would be interesting :) say you can set a siege and siege it for maybe 80 ticks at which point the wall with crumble (a small gap appear somewhere in the wall) or the defenders have to come forth and attack.

 


00:57:56 Apr 29th 08 - Mr. Atreides:

Your idea just gave me an interesting idea. If walls were to come back, we could have a completely different system for wall fighting. Instead of being forced to takeover, you could have the option of keeping the wall city under siege for a certain period of time (which would be inversely proportional to the amount of troops by number) and once that time is up, the city would fall under your command. Of course, there would be a minimum of sieging for at least 1 day or so, and the exact relationship between number of troops and how long it takes for them to starve out would have to be thought out some more.

Now, during this time, the defender has the option of course to defeat the army. And the army would have to be strong enough to win a siege attack. The positive points I'm thinking of are that it prevents stalemates. If the attacking army is only like 40% stronger than the defending army, it would be hard and risky to try to take over the city even with a limited wall bonus. It would still slow the attacker down a lot, so takeovers would be far preferred. Thoughts on this?


08:47:11 Apr 29th 08 - Mr. Periannath:

well you cant starve the army out if you only control one side of the wall  :D


15:56:00 Apr 29th 08 - Duchess Jenine The Nobeard:

Several things I think would help:

1.  No crosswalls whatsoever, a wall only extends until the next barrier and no further.  This way you can only plug up on gap at a time and not three with "clever use of game mechanics."

2.  Exponential price rise based on wall length and number of preexisting walls built by either the player or the kd.

3.  Multiple siege points, forcing defensive armies to relocate based on where the pressure is building up.

4.  A sixth unit, a siege unit that destroys a number of walls per tic.

Obviously some are very unlikely to be implemented, like new units.  But I think a combination of the first three would be beneficial.


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