Forums / In game politics / Valhalla 70
| Valhalla 70 | ||||||||||||||||||
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22:49:37 Dec 3rd 20 - Mr. Seaweed Capn Salaajar:Captain Joes Unholy Run: This is a tactical game, you could have easily make a CF to avoid OOP (NAP wasn't even necessary). Everything you do is on you, not someone elses fault. At the end, the one who think sharps wins. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 22:52:53 Dec 3rd 20 - Lady Jasmina: Well yes that is true. Over time you guys would kill us. There are just way too many of you... Just saying that at this time, when Arma ended the world Nothing really was decided. Poor timing on the Arma, all I am saying. The era was decided the moment the entire north became allies The era would be much more interesting if HnS did not NAP everyone And then claim to win... | ||||||||||||||||||
| 23:08:30 Dec 3rd 20 - Gladiatorul (General Glad The Cruel): Jas, I don't think HnS NAPed anyone. I had friendly relations with them, because we helped each other defending against Judgement at start era. But I was the only Candles member left that side. However, there was no NAP between HnS and Candles. The other members of Candles, didn't even have armies or cities close to HnS. So who else are you implying HnS NAPed with? | ||||||||||||||||||
| 00:13:36 Dec 4th 20 - Sir Atilla The Hun: So you are saying they farmed entire era Did not make any NAPs Decided to run across the map avoiding all north kingdoms And then ran away from our armies Then decided to arma the world Thats what they did? | ||||||||||||||||||
| 00:35:51 Dec 4th 20 - Gladiatorul (General Glad): I am talking about ERA 71. I am not their lawyer, so they can confirm if they had any NAP or not. However, from what I have seen, I am not aware they had any. - Judgement attacked them so I would doubt Judgement made any NAP later era. - Then I explained their relations with me (Candle member). - With Mimic they fought. - KOH, I doubt they had any NAP with them, as I saw one KOH fighter took a 90k of theirs end era. Now put it this way. They've have been planing to win the game by farming. So wouldn't you find natural for them to attack Mimic, the leading KD of the time so they can achieve their target? The only NAP this era that I am aware of was between us and KOH. Two KDs that were defeated OOP and decided to share the NE corner together. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 00:37:57 Dec 4th 20 - Sir Atilla The Hun: When you put it that way, makes sense :) | ||||||||||||||||||
| 03:13:09 Dec 4th 20 - King Perilous: I would like the record to show that we at HNS offices only held back on Judgement because I mistakenly responded to a letter from Stewie Griffin telling him my whole plan and stats on my chief army. Also, while Jasmines armies were powerful, I made no efforts to reinforce Population once it was so far south because of logistics. In closing, you may address me as KING Perilous, your highness, or sire. Thank you. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 03:33:57 Dec 4th 20 - Mr. Tok: So KOH had the most powerful army on the map based on the numbera given..... | ||||||||||||||||||
| 03:44:32 Dec 4th 20 - Konstant (The Ancient Arthas Menethil): Friends, why do we fight? | ||||||||||||||||||
| 11:45:29 Dec 4th 20 - Penguin (Mr. Penguin The Whatever): I heard penguin had 45k nazz in total | ||||||||||||||||||
| 12:27:09 Dec 4th 20 - Mr. Bigfield: I actually forgot about that goof. We were about to invade around November 10 or so when Perilous received a message from Stewie asking to work together. He not only gave away his OP, but he bragged about bonus turns, which he had never used before, but was excited to support the game after many years on and off for playing. He assumed that Stewie was a part of Candlewax and thus would be helping like Glad. Jasmina did more or less message me in a friendly capacity, but we didn't have an NAP. We did have the unofficial NAP with Glad. At eras end we also had an unofficial NAP with Konstant. Just Constant, and only at the end of the era. I tried to communicate it to the KD to prioritize Mimic and not waste time on Judgement, but one didn't read the memo. We don't hide our intentions. We are a mercantile kingdom. We don't start fights, but we do finish them. For years, that was often on the losing side. But as of late, that has been Improving. We are up two players and down one. We have 7 active members this next eras with psace for 3. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 13:01:21 Dec 4th 20 - Stewie Griffin (Mr. Napoleon Bonaparte): You guys literally NAPed the whole map (except Mimic) and then proceeded to farm the entire era. Shameful performance. Let's see how many fights you're able to finish next era lol. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 13:57:45 Dec 4th 20 - Mr. Khalid Ibnal Walid: You dont start fights But you finish them? What war didyou finish this era? | ||||||||||||||||||
14:05:00 Dec 4th 20 - Mr. Seaweed Capn Salaajar:Mr. Khalid Ibnal Walid: | ||||||||||||||||||
| 06:46:54 Dec 5th 20 - Dragon Prophet Theophilus: We ended it with magic. That is to say we don't just roll over or stop logging on when the battle is still going. Who did we even have an official NAP with? Glad from CW was alone in working with us. When we finally encountered KoH (Pilon was the only one who made it that far) it was in combat. We fought against three kingdoms. Some, we didn't see. But we intentionally left a 240 hour window for any challengers to come against us. You had ten days notice. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 15:37:56 Dec 7th 20 - Percy (Sir Percy The Tired): From our perspective, who had eyes on you all era, you farmed in your corner and did nothing all era till the end. Official relations or not, you were not a war-like KD, so you’ll be immediately tagged with having NAP’s even if they aren’t official. Don’t like that banter? Then choose to fight once in a awhile. When I first joined on Val, it was 3-4 KDs that would farm for a full 3 weeks then fight only when a KD chose to move out. After Holy joined and partook in an era of that, we decided to make things fun and choose to fight early and often. Keeps the game fun for all, even if that means losing late. If I have to farm for 3-4 weeks just to win, I’ll throw in the towel as that’s not fun for anyone. All that to say, doesn’t speak much of y’all to have to farm the entire era and cast Arma early to squeeze out a win. I wouldn’t be holding my head up high, as you haven’t had a clear victory in a long time. That’s all people in this thread have been trying to say | ||||||||||||||||||
| 17:52:13 Dec 7th 20 - Mr. Bigfield: You observed us for an entire era and moved to attack our core with only a single orc. The stated reason is we took on Pilon, a tagless player. If you knew we were only farming and we're unprepared for war for a month, why did you choose to let it continue? That speaks more of your own strategic thinking than ours. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 19:19:59 Dec 7th 20 - Percy (Sir Percy The Tired): Did you not see us mop up KoH and CW, then within 3 days have Mimic come knocking at our door? You speak of strategic thinking, yet what you imply would have hurt us far worse. We honestly expected you all to come rushing down to clean us up as an easy target after the OOP debacle, but you never did... We never once moved to legitimately attack your core. If you mean the ~100 naz raid as an outright attack, then you kid yourself. He was trying to see what damage could be done on a farming KD with that little amount, and he more than paid for his escapade in what he did. Honestly was a solid raid in all. Wouldnt change a thing there. Taking on Pilon was a great addition, I applaud you all for that. Bringing in tagless and helping train them is the main reason for this world, so kudos to you all for that :) | ||||||||||||||||||
| 19:38:46 Dec 7th 20 - Mr. Bigfield: He did well but left after saying that he didn't have time for the next era. One thing he didn't consider was the speed at which a full army moves across the map. I think he wasted a good amount of rl days changing directions. We had six-seven players. Strategically, it would have been foolhardy to overextend ourselves. Again, the Armageddon city was open for attack. We intentionally wanted to leave the 240 days in game in case others wanted to try to interrupt it. Most go for an instant arma. We made the choice bit to to allow a window of opportunity if others declined. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 20:11:33 Dec 7th 20 - Percy (Sir Percy The Tired): I commended him on his attempt to Orc-drop the backside of our core, he really could grow if he had more time... Shame he backed out, but RL is always more important. In all honesty, it wouldnt have been much overextension lol I was blown away with how long we survived, cause we shouldve fallen quite quickly. Due to yall and Mimic not being aggressive, we were able to amass enough power to fully repel their first wave, all up until JD and Peng came into the mix. That was game over for us. Its much appreciated you left that open, most dont. However, I still agree the world was far from over. On a timeline it was nearing the normal end-of-world case, but given that a well-farmed HnS was to fight against an equally well-farmed Mimic and a re-established KoH/CW alliance, there was much left on the table. Just because Mimic may have lost some ground on the KoH/CW front doesnt mean they were dying, as we can attest that still had large armies back in their core from when Konstant tried to push through as time was winding down. They are a conservative KD, so while they may have power abroad, they dont send it all. Don't underestimate them :P I maintain that unless one KD is a clear winner (all non-allied KDs < 30% power) Arma shouldn't be cast, but that decision is ultimately up to the one capable of casting, which was yall. So congrats on the victory! | ||||||||||||||||||
| 20:20:19 Dec 7th 20 - Konstant (The Ancient Glenfiddich): I can confirm that I couldn't push much into the Mimic core. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 21:08:42 Dec 7th 20 - Penguin (Lord Penguin): @percy the thing that was most crucial which led to first wave loss was the lack of magic, thats why i backed off with my nazz and dropped a town over the blocker to build up mc to support us better. focused mainly on training mus and hurting your income on Eqs and other annoying spells. after JD came I moved my nazz a bit again and then backed off, left stewie, jd, jas to take over and get fat. returned to core to counter CW and KOH, but they didnt make a big move, then just moved back to your side, smacked a bit Pilon, but era was pretty much over with the early arma. would have moved for HnS and pretty much buttraped them with 45k nazz. too bad era ended early. | ||||||||||||||||||
21:20:50 Dec 7th 20 - Mr. Seaweed Capn Salaajar:Penguin: Me understand all 'tis... except that ye couldn't just B&D the Arma City wit' yer so loved army which wasn't an army at all most probably. | ||||||||||||||||||
21:28:26 Dec 7th 20 - Mr. Seaweed Capn Salaajar:  | ||||||||||||||||||
| 23:38:17 Dec 7th 20 - Percy (Sir Percy The Tired): @Peng - Fully agree, the EQs are what eventually did us in. Issue is, we shouldve never lasted that long. We had no real troops in the blocker, yet you bypassed it long before Sal ever got to it. Had you taken that, game over. After then, you chose not to take and demo Cpt's 90k's (only did one) and really did no meaningful damage to our econ the first time you broke through, actually resulting in a total slaughter of all three armies with no loss to us. You did well, but there wasnt much strategy at play, looked more like 3 people wandering around to me. We should've died that first time you broke in. You stalled long enough we got the troops to hold further until JD came to the rescue. @Ivanho - Can confirm he had at least a minimum of 30k naz, as he had more than that before we lost all magic, which was long before Arma was ever cast. We were more scared of Peng's naz than we were JD's army, which was even stronger, simply because of the strong magic at that point. Issue isnt if the Arma city itself could be cracked. Their entire core could be taken over, but with 7 well-farmed and experienced players dumping all troops into a single city, there's no way it falls in 10 days, specially dug deep into a corner of the map with their only threat on the opposite end, having to fight through all other KDs (who HnS chose to not fight) just to reach. Again, was simply cast too early and clearly shows era was nowhere near over. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 00:52:09 Dec 8th 20 - Gladiatorul (General Glad): Friends, there is one thing I don't understand. Why only members of Judgement and Mimic complain about Arma being cast too early? 1.All Judgement players can now play again. 2. And Mimic players, can still say: hey you 3 KDs, we could have killed you all, if Arma didn' stop us. You should be happy, one would think so. And Percy, better early than late, I think. All people have a chance to play again And by the way Percy, I thought Valhalla is a world for newbs. 50% rule. Maybe let newbs farm so they can understand the game better. Why are you pushing for All OOP wars in this world? Also to note: Theo has always got his ass kicked in Fantasia. Have some pity. Now, he served everyone a lesson of strategy. Be kind and accept it. Why would Theo attack Judgement with one Dwarf and one Halfer (the orc lost OOP and was rebuilding). Hns were in the same position I was (and I explained Jas at the time). If Judgement was to fall too quickly how could a dwarf and a halfer face 3 Mimic's AoDable armies (2 trolls and 1 orc)? So attacking Judgement, was only helpful for Mimic. I know sometimes it is hard to keep the right balance. I shoudn't have attacked them, either. At the time, I thought Mimic is crumbling. And some people always think others farmed more then themselves. There is a difference between farming (building) and training troops (but not attacking). Guess what? Hitbox had 3 x 90 buildings plus 2 more smaller cities in his core. Around 350k farmed buildings. I doubt anyone, even guys from Hns built more buildings than this. So, can anyone argue that this is not extreme farming? | ||||||||||||||||||
| 03:03:32 Dec 8th 20 - Konstant (The Ancient Primordial Forces of Kaos): This is a war game, not a building simulator. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 03:08:17 Dec 8th 20 - Gladiatorul (General Glad): Konstant, at the end of the day, everyone plays the game the way he/she enjoys. Some people play the game to win only. Others even cheat to do that. These guys farmed, trained, waited and attacked when they thought it was appropriated. So show some respect. Liking others assess did not help you in the past. Short memory? Mimic did well given the situation, but they shouldn't complain about others' farming technique. They had their own farming time. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 03:15:54 Dec 8th 20 - Konstant (The Ancient Primordial Forces of Kaos): And I quote directly from the post above yours, Glad, "HnS, congrats for your win. If it made you happy to play in this type of format, then I'm happy for you". | ||||||||||||||||||
| 03:33:07 Dec 8th 20 - Gladiatorul (General Glad): Konstant, when I said friends, I didn't mean you. And you know that. You respectfully disrespect others. Ask for respect in return? On topic - do not criticize the way other people play. Read through your words again - you contradict yourself in your statement. If they just enjoy playing this way - why do you spoil their enjoyment? Ugly character. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 05:25:35 Dec 8th 20 - Percy (Sir Percy The Tired): @Glad - I’m not as much complaining of the early Arma cast as much as I am criticizing. There’s a fine line between the two, and I hope I’ve stayed that line well enough. If I haven’t, then I’ve missed my mark. One can be grateful for the chance to play again while at the same time understanding that the previous game wasn’t over yet. That’s been the point of all my arguments here. On the point of noobs - if you ask ANY of the noobs we’ve trained, they much enjoy the thrill of an OOP fight (even if we lose) to a farming simulator. There’s much more learning involved, particularly the strategizing of what to do and when, that simply can’t be taught when building up forever. My fam tried to get our youngest brother to play, but he quit the game cause there was no action. If he gave the game one era, who’s to say other noobs won’t do the same? We have 2 new players who joined us and are learning this era (1 is a true noob) and being thrust into an OOP fight is accelerating their desire to learn what to do in these situations and how to balance a growing econ with troops. Again, that can’t be taught if farming up. Should we survive to the end game, the tactics of a farmer turned warrior hold the same as one who fought all era long. Plus, fighting all era keeps the game as it’s meant to be played, a war game, which helps keep players involved and excited for the game. Val used to be dead with farming till we helped revive it, and I’d say it’s thriving now. The difference? Stopping the farming. On Mimic - we never once said they didn’t farm. They did as expected: farm up and attack the map, as farmers should (though I still despise farming in general...). We have every right to complain about a KD who farmed all era with no fighting yet wins the era due to casting Arma at a time when it couldn’t have been cancelled. We applaud Mimic, but we look down on HnS while congratulating them on their win, as it was justly won though not in ways that are admirable. Also not arguing what HnS could’ve or should’ve done differently. We all have reasons for doing what we do. I maintain that while they chose the route that was best for them, which happened to end in a victory, it was not done in a way beholden to the masses. Sometimes the best choice is an unpopular one, and that simply means you have to take a bit of the criticism that goes along with it and move on. We’re dishing out the criticism now as it’s something that shouldn’t happen often, but it was certainly the best option for them, and they executed on that option well. Won’t be too long and we’ll all be moved on, knowing where everyone stands on the topic of an early Arma cast to hopefully deter that from happening in the future :) | ||||||||||||||||||
| 06:03:48 Dec 8th 20 - Gladiatorul (General Glad): Percy, what is the chance for true noobs (first era) to play again after getting crushed in the first 2-3 OOP days? I'd day quite low. And where do you think most true noobs end-up playing? In a KD like Theo's most likely, I'd say. KDs like yours are selective. So, from this point of view, Theo's KD is good in Valhalla. Needs encouragement. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 06:16:04 Dec 8th 20 - Percy (Sir Percy The Tired): Uhh... what? Not dissing on Theo's KD whatsoever, but we've taken in more noobs (at least in the last year), and all but one is still playing to this day (the one who left had RL come up, he didnt want to give it up). We are not that selective at all, if a noob wants to play we accept them. We've had some in the past who wont do Discord, and we've worked around that and its worked well, just not as smoothly and is not a method we prefer, so always ask if they will do Discord (though it is not a strict requirement). On the noob part, we make a point to not attack tagless. So that part of your argument is invalid completely (as we've discussed in previous threads), as you are assuming the noobs have no assistance of any kind. If they are in a KD, I assume they are getting help and insight from that KD, or at least they send them our way or to other KDs (as HnS has done, sending us noobs, in the past) to help them get training elsewhere. If the KD they are in is inactive or insufficient at training them, then that's sadly an issue we cant avoid. Not every KD can be as noob-friendly as we are, and thats a scenario that cant be avoided. To prevent this would be pure farming, which I have watched push people away, so I remain firm in my stance against farming (as it has almost pushed many other away in the past as well). I feel you have something against either me personally or Judgement as a whole, as you cant seem to find anything positive about us when we have been nothing but supportive and protective of Val as a new player world from the start. To the point you are nearing on outright slandering us, and for what reason? If its about Konstant, I know you both have harsh feelings towards eachother, but I respectfully ask that the animosity be left behind in matters that dont concern him. If its about me, then I have no clue where I have wronged you and would like to find a way to make amends. We may not have always seen eye-to-eye, but I have always respected you and your opinions, both as a player and as a leader. Instead of trying (and frankly, failing) to prove how we are anti-noob and the problem with VU, I would like us to work towards ensuring all KDs on this world are properly addressing new player growth. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 06:33:49 Dec 8th 20 - Gladiatorul (General Glad): Percy, I don't have anything personal with you or Judgement. I have respect for most Judgement players (3 of them are Ex-Gladiators) and I even like the way Judgement fought this era. However, I think the way you publicize it is not right for the world you are in. Look - highly skilled veterans like Bogdan, test something and do not get involved in fighting at all. For me it was an experiment, and I will avoid fighting here in the future. While you are proud for bringing and supporting OOP wars here. I saw for myself, 2 players from Candles, stopped playing after your crush. I mean, it's ok, you need some fun, but the same time I don't think it's right to make a rule for all KDs to fight OOP and criticize those who don't. | ||||||||||||||||||
06:56:29 Dec 8th 20 - Mr. Seaweed Capn Salaajar:Gladiatorul:I'm training a solid new player, and he's doing pretty good actually. Why would a new player lose if you teach him well! They're most cases way more active than y'all. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 06:58:20 Dec 8th 20 - Percy (Sir Percy The Tired): Not saying all KDs should OOP fight (note how I havent once criticized Mimic, actually commended them) just that not ALL KDs should farm. Specially if fighting is never part of the plan. If people come here to test, they have every right to and will be left alone unless they are aggressive. Its the same privilege I've been given on Mantrax multiple times over, and it works for all parties. Not sure how that point fits in this discussion to be honest... I will say, we dont usually fight 2 KDs OOP at once. That was a new one, but a challenge we were willing to partake in cause we all wanted the test (even our noobs). Typically, we OOP one KD, then move on to the next, and so on and so forth. One of the people you reference as leaving is Dakarta, and he is quite busy with RL right now. Crushed or not he was leaving for at least an era. He and I play other games together, so we keep in touch even outside of here. So in a single era, only one person could have left due to the fight. I would posit they also left due to holidays coming up, as I wouldnt be here right now if not for Jasper's absence and the need for continuous leadership in the KD. My dad and 3 others have also taken a leave of absence for that very reason, but that wasnt due to the game (we have 7 players actually playing this era, and thats counting our 2 new players). They simply prioritize life, so I wouldnt automatically count that one who didnt respawn as walking away due to defeat. Just as an FYI, you may not be aware, but few of us in Judgement are playing in a role that we use in a regular world, as a way to help us each become a well-rounded player by learning from eachother's strengths. So regardless of how an era shakes out, it is always a learning experience for at minimum 50% of our playerbase, meaning even our vets are generally given a handicap. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 07:06:54 Dec 8th 20 - Gladiatorul (General Glad): Percy, I am not talking about Dakarta. I don't think Dakarta is a new player. Two new players stopped playing immediately after OOP. One came back about 10 days later, but still gave-up after. I think you, Vet guys, playing in Valhalla should not incriminate noob-kind behavior: farming and avoiding war. First teaching lesson for a new guy should be abut how to farm. Then how to build an army and then how to fight. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 07:18:21 Dec 8th 20 - Mr. Seaweed Capn Salaajar: It's actually hard to keep New players in VU, even if somehow they find the game. Message from Mr. GodarPeople of Godar
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| 07:18:53 Dec 8th 20 - Mr. Seaweed Capn Salaajar: That guy still left VU after my pm. And he's not coming back. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 13:36:54 Dec 8th 20 - Dragon Prophet Theophilus: Respectfully, VU is classified as a Strategy Game. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Visual%20Utopia Visual Utopia is a fantasy web game played in your browser. It has an advanced map based on asp and javascript, so you do not need any plugins or downloads to play it! The goal of the game is to grow an empire stronger then everyone else’s, using strategy and politics. You can explore and create new colonies or train armies that you can use to take over colonies by force. Depending on the terrain, the colonies will produce resources that you can trade on the market or use for constructing and training of troops. The game has a great and active community as well as admins that listen to the players. by The Native People April 05, 2011 | ||||||||||||||||||
| 13:39:52 Dec 8th 20 - Dragon Prophet Theophilus: Further: https://newrpg.com/browser-games/visual-utopia/ Visual Utopia is a strategic empire building game. Create a city by moving your army to a free spot and settling the colony. Build your city near a mountain to get bonuses. More aggressive playing style allows you to take over another city. Afterwards, you can construct buildings to expand your empire. Lots of facilities such as homes, mines, magic towers, warehouses, lumber mills, farms, and so on. Buildings are more effective in certain locations. A farm produces more food when it's built in a city that's near a river. In a category: Strategy browser games | ||||||||||||||||||
| 13:41:00 Dec 8th 20 - Dragon Prophet Theophilus: War has always been a supported playstyle, but to suggest building in an Empire building game misses the point. | ||||||||||||||||||
14:09:32 Dec 8th 20 - Mr. Stardust Collector:Dragon Prophet Theophilus:Well this is why, building games don't give any stress or sleepless nights ;) | ||||||||||||||||||
| 16:49:43 Dec 8th 20 - Konstant (The Ancient Glenfiddich): Have you seen this roster Glad? None of them are even remotely new. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 16:59:00 Dec 8th 20 - Percy (Sir Percy The Tired): And for reference, thats the exact same lineup they had last era, just with the loss of Pilon who has backed out due to RL taking up too much time. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 19:02:22 Dec 8th 20 - Mr. Bigfield: We've had about four other new members come and go over the last two eras. We filled up for a while but with a few members migrating out, we have space to train and retain more, again. If I recall, Malthael was trained by us years ago. | ||||||||||||||||||
| 19:05:25 Dec 8th 20 - Penguin (Lord Penguin): Yeah, trained the guide of vu( dunno why he is one, as my worst pupil) who has played longer then you guys... | ||||||||||||||||||
| 20:55:30 Dec 8th 20 - Gladiatorul (General Glad): @Konstant Have you seen this roster Glad? None of them are even remotely new. I am saying their style suits new players. And by new player, I mean first era players. Vets like Greija returning to game, already know the game - they wouldn't leave game after an OOP defeat. If one joins the game for first time and lose it in 3 days, highly likely he won't play again. If he manages to do some farming, train an army, get some taste of the game, and then loses - he has higher chance to keep playing. DO you disagree with this Konstant? | ||||||||||||||||||
21:14:22 Dec 8th 20 - Mr. Stardust Collector:Mr. Bigfield: I'm sorry to tell you mate, Malthael is a GUIDE. Even more experienced than you or me <3 Meanwhile, he's the official Guide of VU. | ||||||||||||||||||
21:15:01 Dec 8th 20 - Mr. Stardust Collector:Penguin: Caz he's better than you. | ||||||||||||||||||
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