Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Discussion about maps

Discussion about maps
08:06:09 Dec 9th 19 - McMax (Mr. Grumpy Old Wild Boar):

This thread is made for general discussion about what features we would like maps to have - not specific suggestions, we have the Suggestions and Improvements forum for that - but more hmmmmm "loose" input.

Let's start with this, based on my latest map:


21:25:17 Dec 8th 19 - McMax (Mr. Grumpy Old Wild Boar):
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I already know that I have made the bridges a little too wide - of course no-one should be able to build cities on a bridge.

04:50:52 Dec 9th 19 - Endless (Ms. Zetian):

I like bridge cities 


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07:11:22 Dec 9th 19 - McMax (Mr. Grumpy Old Wild Boar): (Edit post)
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As for cities on the bridge. I certainly didn't made them wide enough on purpose to "trap" Admin so bridges could be build upon them. But on the other hand.... as long as the city can't grow larger than 14.4K then maybe I should keep my own bridge-version as it is.....

Besides I/we also have the stonebridge, that Trogdar made for his Shatteredworld (the one I also use on this map) if/when I want a bridge where it shouldn't be possible to build.

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08:08:07 Dec 9th 19 - McMax (Mr. Grumpy Old Wild Boar):

Is this a "feature" worth to keep?


08:18:05 Dec 9th 19 - Percy (Mr. Percy The Noble):

I personally like the city on a bridge. So long as it reaches 14k, it helps guarantee a blocker, whereas the current stone bridges are notorious for not blocking completely at the edges. Having a city in the middle where it removes that error would reduce a lot of headaches. 


19:18:46 Dec 9th 19 - Matthew (Chief Mattis):

At first the 'large cities on bridges' mechanic felt as out of place as the removal of greatwalls from Manxmap did but when I really think about it it's honestly a big improvement.

Why?

*Everyone knows how janky the bridges could be before
*Most players settled blockers on either end of bridges because 14400+ blockers are more functional for many reasons (mostly for preventing CW with housed MUs and higher prep time)
*There are still plenty of maps with the other bridges on them for those who prefer them. Everyone would agree that map variety is a good thing.



03:26:36 Dec 10th 19 - Endless (Ms. Zetian):

any plans to make all the maps on all worlds expand? this is kind of cool 


15:23:21 Dec 11th 19 - Dakarta (Prince Dakarta):

I don't think you should be able to walk over mountains like this? This is on the GvE map.


16:22:31 Dec 11th 19 - McMax (Battlemage Mcmax The Dark Knight):

And now to something completely different (Monty Python).

That problem has nothing to do with my map. That is how the map has been plottet, so the game-engine can "translate" what kind of actions this spot allows.


17:20:47 Dec 11th 19 - Phat (Grand Moff Good Boy):

So the engine isn't reading the colors as impassible? 

One of two things needs to happen then:
1) use preapproved colors

2) add new color info the engine

Right?


18:12:07 Dec 11th 19 - McMax (Battlemage Mcmax The Dark Knight):

Now I'm not sure - but I do think some if not all the plotting-work is done manual.


05:54:49 Dec 12th 19 - Matthew (Chief Mattis):

Wasn't it the case that ZeTa had to manually border the map by hand?
I could be wrong but I had been told some years ago that this was the case.
That would take a lot of time and be very high effort (and prone to minor errors).

Were this were the case then we could be enormously helpful/useful by finding all the 'problem areas' worth touching up ourselves and then posting them at the end of the era if someone is willing to patch them up.

If this is not the case then ignore this post, but I had been told that all the bordering was done manually some 10 years ago.


06:07:39 Dec 12th 19 - McMax (Battlemage Mcmax The Dark Knight):

It wouldn't be a big problem for me to deliver a 4 or 5-color map-version (mountains, forrest, plains, water (and bridges if that is needed) to Admin on any of the maps I have made.

As for the suggestion for a list of plotting-errors. No matter if the errors are corrected or not, I would welcome such a list.


02:03:01 Dec 15th 19 - ZeTa (VU Admin):

Trees, water, and mountains are plotted by placing either a 80x80px or 40x40px box. And rivers are plotted with 20x20px boxes.


02:11:55 Dec 15th 19 - Emperor Magicalpolarbear:


McMax:thor">10:22:31 Dec 11th 19 - McMax (Battlemage Mcmax The Dark Knight):

And now to something completely different (Monty Python).

That problem has nothing to do with my map. That is how the map has been plottet, so the game-engine can "translate" what kind of actions this spot allows.


Just admit your bad at making maps. lol jk I like it




10:33:59 Dec 15th 19 - McMax (Mr. Grumpy Old Wild Boar):

A few questions to Admin about making a new map.


When you plot a map you use boxes. But are you able to "tile" boxes of same type in any way or is it one and one layer only (I take it, that it isn't possible to tile boxes of a different type)?



All tiles with no boxes at all are considered "open land" for armies/citybuilding. Correct?  

Bridges are also considered as open land and only the width of the bridge sets a limit if a bridge can be builded upon or not (and of course the size of the city). Correct?


The edges. If you place a city as close to edge as possible, it will not block even with walls closed. But mountains/forrests/rivers placed close to or "crossing over" the edge does block. Why???


11:11:24 Dec 15th 19 - ZeTa (VU Admin):

I try to tile the boxes side by side in order to use as few as possible. But they can also overlap.

No terrain means "open land".

Bridges are open land. There is no special box for bridges.

The map can be repeated indefinitely. So an army at position 2500+5 is checked as if it where in position 5. So in theory they would only block on the right or bottom, but I have patched that in most places, where for example when you place a city on position 1 it also checks position 2480-2500.



16:53:03 Dec 15th 19 - McMax (Battlemage Mcmax The Dark):

Thanks for the answers.

But more questions (I'll use rivers as reference as I think that is the most important (due to riverjumping) and most difficult to handle).


When you "follow" and mark how a river is bending first one way then the other and then back again. How do you "assure", that the width of a river doesn't get to narrow in some places and "allow" riverjumping?  Do you have a buffer, say rivers should normally be 20px wide, but in a real game armies can't pass rivers more than 12-15-17 px wide. Asking because that would be something I should consider when making a map.


09:23:16 Dec 16th 19 - McMax (Battlemage Mcmax The Dark):

BTW: Are you able to turn your boxes 45° and plot from "northwest towards southeast" and "southwest towards northeast" or is it only north to south and east to west??


09:22:54 Dec 26th 19 - McMax (Battlemage Mcmax The Dark):

Still missing feedback from Admin on above....


But time isn't wasted (I'm not going to ask my wife) while waiting. Now I'm able to make mountains that looks like those in Shatteredworld. Next task is find a way to color them, so they get a nice look.


22:39:27 Dec 31st 19 - ZeTa (VU Admin):

The issue with river jumping comes from diagonal rivers and them being squares, and army "steps" with distance-to-terrain rather then line-line-intersect. Although I have patched that with line-line-intersect in some places.

Fun fact: The terrain algorithms was created about 20 years ago and until recently mapping the terrain required IE6 and used some really old JavaScript code. And my algorithms knowledge  was limited back then so pretty much all formulas use point-to-point distance rather then intersect or point inside polygon.


23:08:09 Dec 31st 19 - McMax (Mr. Lightfoot):

Read.

But since we (I) have less than 60min to NewYear and I already have consumed some X-mas beers and my first (little) glass of Champange (the cheap and sweet one, called Asti Sprumante), then......serious comments...... naaaahhh. Not now.

HAPPY NEW YEAR to all.



23:10:54 Dec 31st 19 - Mr. Glarus Ignazius:

Haha Happy new year. 


09:42:37 Jan 8th 20 - McMax (Battlemage Mcmax The Dark):

15:30:43 Dec 30th 19 - Sir Surprise:

VU doesn't need developmemt. If anything it should be rolled back to one map only with everyone on it and if u die u restart on lower world. That system was the best. Also: working Maps.


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18:43:59 Dec 30th 19 - Emperor Caligula:

I agree 100% with the below comment 

Sir Surprise:thor">09:30:43 Dec 30th 19 - Sir Surprise:

VU doesn't need developmemt. If anything it should be rolled back to one map only with everyone on it and if u die u restart on lower world. That system was the best. Also: working Maps.




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14:13:18 Dec 31st 19 - ZeTa (VU Admin):


Sir Surprise:

Also: working Maps.


Can you make a new post in bugs & errors or bump an existing post to document your map issues!?

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18:25:48 Dec 31st 19 - Sir Surprise:


ZeTa:


Sir Surprise:

Also: working Maps.


Can you make a new post in bugs & errors or bump an existing post to document your map issues!?

Tbh most maps have issues, mainly when it comes to making blockers that  actually block. The fact that we keep adding maps doesn't help. There has been several threads about it. Mby I bump a Good one. Crux is this is what you would call a "målkonflikt".

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18:49:27 Dec 31st 19 - Mr. Glarus Ignazius:

Hahaha målkonflik.  Well you could call it so. And the issue with blockers,   in some maps blockers are just useless.


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19:59:25 Jan 1st 20 - McMax (Mr. Lightfoot):
More maps with different "challenges" for the gameplay DO help. That's my not-so-humble opinion and it's the reason why I do make maps for this game (for free).

Making blockers however is not something, that allways should work. It should depend on the players "skill"/"fingerspitzengefûhl" and/or the paid scout-terrain feature. And in some places, it shouldn't be possible at all.


But the most important issue is, that the terrain is plottet as close to the visible terrain as possible AND in case a good decent plotting isn't possible due to what-ever reason, the terrain should be plotted as part of the nearest river/mountain/forrest. It must NEVER be plotted as "open land".

Only execption from this is the bridge. The area without terrainplotting should always be wide enough to let a unit pass it. Maybe even wide enough to allow a city on it if it looks "ok". But never so wide, that armies can "pass" the river "on the wrong side" of the bridge.

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09:44:07 Jan 8th 20 - McMax (Battlemage Mcmax The Dark):

Time to continue the thread I think......


22:39:27 Dec 31st 19 - ZeTa (VU Admin):
The issue with river jumping comes from diagonal rivers and them being squares, and army "steps" with distance-to-terrain rather then line-line-intersect. Although I have patched that with line-line-intersect in some places.

Fun fact: The terrain algorithms was created about 20 years ago and until recently mapping the terrain required IE6 and used some really old JavaScript code. And my algorithms knowledge  was limited back then so pretty much all formulas use point-to-point distance rather then intersect or point inside polygon.
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I was thinking if it was possible for me to plot my maps too and provide a "full packet" to Admin, that he could put on the server and activate. But with above "fun fact" I'm not sure I can.

But if - IF - it should be possible after all, then...... we would all be winners.

I would do my utmost to provide an error-free map and/or be able to correct any plotting-errors (and be a little proud of my maps too).
All players would get new maps with new challenges, which I still think is a "must" for any game.
Admin would save a some time for other purposes - such as programming new features/fix old glitches.


15:40:39 Jan 8th 20 - Phat (Grand Moff Phat):

Has the concept of a world built by seed been considered?

We've got flat worlds, it doesn't seem too extreme to implement.

If there is a desire from @Zeta to explore this, I'm willing to help out too!


edit: Something like this could even work:
https://pixelminer.tumblr.com/post/47239109358/realistic-2d-terrain-generation


edit2: I do now recall something about the game engine supporting one specific images/size/tiling.

If you're up for it Zeta, opening up some of this code would allow us to help with the maps A LOT!


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