Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Did Jesus Exist ?

I agree with Erunion.

Now my points on it:

    What would all the poor people in Africa have to believe? What would they do? What is their point to live if its just going to be starvation and hunger every day for them! It gives them HOPE, which is something that atheism won't give. What about living under a a oppressive government and being a slave? What would you do? Why would you want to live? What point would their be to life? You would just die and well.....stop living?

    Religion gives hope and encourages good work and charity. Atheism promotes general unhappiness, destroys hope, and encourages kids to go against what their parents tell them too because they wont have something ingrained in their minds to DO what parents tell them too.

Oh wow, this grew considerably larger since the last time I came by.

"If you really believe in God the way Christians supposedly do, then who are you or anyone else to decide which ones of his lessons are important and which ones can be left behind? The bible doesn't give a rating system on what is more important than anything else, it says follow all the following things and lists them. Now people just run around picking and choosing, thinking they are better than the guy next to them who chooses to follow none of the lessons. Once you choose not to follow one part of the bible, you're just as bad as I am for following close to none of them."

Again, this assumes that all Christians believe the bible to be %100 true--which is not the case.  The bible is contradictory and in many ways, vague.  Also, if the bible is taken in historical context, one can see where it was influenced by social norms--norms that may have been more important to those who wrote and compiled the bible than to what a true god or Jesus might have intended.

" "P1)The bible is God's word. P2)God is always correct. Conclusion) Let's not follow the bible because it isn't what God really meant to say." is a perfect example of a lack of logic."

Again, not all Christians hold the bible to be literal truth directly inspired by god.  Yes, those who believe something in the bible yet choose to disregard it are being hypocritical--but don't forget you can only be hypocritical if you set boundaries in the first place.

"Again, what is the point of calling a personal collection of ethics, decided on by yourself, a religion. The bible doesn't say you can pick and choose what you want, so how are Protestants sticking to what it says any more than I am?"

Assuming here the bible is interpretable, that makes it impossible to have one defined definitive true set of guidelines laid down by the bible.  Hence, that's the reason there are many different versions out there--even translating the bible into a different language can subtly alter meaning, not to mention considering the differing societal context of the word.  So yes, it is impossible to follow everything in the bible--but following most of it does in deed mean Protestants are sticking to it closer than you are.

"The entire world agrees on the basic ideas that you do about what is right and what is wrong. As you well know, the rest of the world is not necessarily Christian, so what value is your religion? What does it offer you in terms of ethics that you wouldn't have come up with on your own?"

Ethics very by parts of the world, just as religion.  In some societies it is honorable to kill in revenge, in others murder is wrong in all situations except self-defense, and in others killing by any means or intentions is wrong.  In some societies people may be very willing to take in and house a guest for the night, and in others most people would refuse such a traveler.  Religion varies just as ethics do.

Additionally, ethics are a display of attitudes people should play towards one another.  Religion, however, brings in a new factor--attitudes one can hold about themselves.  For example, the Christian religion asks that people pray to god not only as a means of communication but also as a means of self-reflection.  Ethics probably won't teach you to be thankful for what you have and not to miss what you don't, wheras religion states that people should consider their family and wealth as a gift.

No one needs religion.  However, there are a lot of things we have that we don't need...poetry, fiction, singing, fancy goods, personal philosophy, to name  a few.  Religion, in essence, is simply an approach to a combination of several beliefs.

"Now tell me something else, have their been any documented cases infallibly proving evolution within the past 100 years? No, it is based on peoples interpretations of the fossil record, yet many people (such as, I presume, yourself) believe it."

Fossil records, observing microevolution in bacteria, the similarity in DNA between humans and apes (and a rather close match to many other mammals, too), and natural selection are just a few fields of evidence (and quite extensive fields they are, too.)  This is why people "believe" evolution.

"There are many, many hoaxes and tricks played on evolutionists and many people claim things that support evolution but are later proven to be false, ridiculous or hoaxes, yet people (again, such as yourself) still believe."

Yeah, and I bet you never read about all the times the scientists said "this is a fake, stop wasting our time."  I'd like to hear your evidence on these hoaxes.

"Yet people still believe. There is as much proof for miracles (at least, in my moderately well-informed opinion) as there is for evolution. "

Evolution is a theory that has been developing, and still continues to, for the past 150 years.  Miracles are mainly based off of eye witnesses.  And the fact that magicians can easily fool a crowd that is, to some degree, looking to be fooled should throw up some red flags right away.

I can't read the ITALICS. It hurts so.....BAD

Justin, I really don't have time for this, unfortunately.
Clamps, just points I picked up in the brief amount of time I had to skim your post, Christianity doesn't tell people to lie down and die... Rather, it tells people that they have a purpose in life, and when they finally do die, life will be better.

Have you noticed something? Have you ever heard of a true and active Christian committing suicide? Christian's in general have an extremely low rate (per capita) of depression and suicide.
For example (True story);
Aboriginal reserves in Canada are a hotbed of drugs, alcohol and suicide. In several of these reserves, there is a suicide every month some years. Now, one particular reserve is held up to all the others as a model, there is no drunkenness, no people on drugs, no suicide. (A tribe of Cree indians, in fact, the leaders of the other tribes are often brought to this particular reserve to show them how a reserve can be.) The difference? Several ye*beep*arlier a missionary had come to this reserve, and converted to Christianity every single member of the tribe. Now these people have a purpose and a hope, that makes all the difference.
Atheism, on the other hand, (unintentionally) encourages suicide, depression and even murder! To the atheist, we are just random bunches of atoms banging against each other. What difference does it make which way the atoms bang? None at all. For an example, there was a recent school killing in Finland, thirteen(?) students were killed by another student, who then shot himself. What was his reasoning? On his website he kept posting how he thought that the gene pool should be culled, that he should aid natural selection by removing all the 'lesser beings.' That such people all deserve to die. Similar reasoning was used by the Nazi's. They believed that natural selection should be encouraged by culling out all lesser beings, hence the holocaust.


On a different note, I would like to apologize to Justin, I shouldn't have lost my temper and flamed you.

Well, I thought I'd check out this claim that Christianity reduces the rate of suicide and depression. My school subscribes to 23 different servers which in turn allow access to thousands of psychiatric and psychological academic articles each. My seach found two articles even talking about this and they each mentioned in the first line of the abstract that research on this question was non-existant and that the articles were pioneering works.

 One measured self-reported assessment of religious coping skills for depression in highly religious people (in other words they were given a survey that asked "does religion help you stay happy"). This obviously proves nothing of what religious coping actually does, especially for the average person, only what people who are very religious think it does. It did show though that about 40% of these highly religious people thought it was helping them (shocking right? =p).

The other studied suicide rates in religious people where they found that there was no connection between religious activity and the actual rates of suicide (in other words, you were just as likely to kill yourself either way). The researchers accepted the results of the above mentioned study and didn't ask if religion helped keep them happy, but found that 10% of their group used religion in their reasoning for rational suicide (the example given was that some craved to end this life because the afterlife was preferable to them).

As for this one reservation you're talking about, there are a whole pile of things wrong with that story. First of all, the vast...VAST majority of the people in reservations here are Christian. They have more churches per capita than you or I (well I dunno if you're in the southern states or something but otherwise yes they have more). They still have their drugs and crime despite all being religious people so I don't get the point of your story based just on that, but to continue:

There are millions of factors that affect suicide. Social and economic factors are different everywhere you go, so there could be any combination of these factors conspiring to make that particular reserve a good one to live in. The city it is near, the size of the place, the unmber of people, the average income, the available activities for kids, the laws, the schools, etc. The list goes on, so how can it be that you'd expect someone reading your post to give all the credit to a guy who converted them to Christianity...especially when most reserves are primarily Christian populations anyway?

Atheism, on the other hand, (unintentionally) encourages suicide, depression and even murder!

Wow... do I need to even tell you that there is no research to back this up or would you gather that from the first bit of my post? Someone was accused  earlier in this thread of groundless and baseless claims earlier; maybe we all ought to be more careful of doing it? All you've done here is posted something that seems to make sense when you already have the (false) notion that Christianity does something to prevent these things. Not only is there nothing to prove that Christianity prevents these types of activities, but it would be a totally different issue to test that lack of belief in gods and spirits increases them, and that research doesn't exist either.

To the atheist, we are just random bunches of atoms banging against each other. What difference does it make which way the atoms bang? None at all.

You've made the time-old mistake of equating atheism with nihilism. People who do not believe in fairy tales are not debased, unethical robots who walk around shooting each other because they are responsible to no one. On the contrary, they walk around not shooting each other because it is WRONG. If humans couldn't form ethics on their own without religion we'd be a lot worse off than we are. Can you name a religious person without sin? No, they sin just as much as somone who avoids unjust actions and I know that because we have no research proving they do. Highly religious people, for purposes of suicide and misdeed, are statistically the very same population as atheists and everyone in between. All these notions otherwise are pulled right out of the air.

Similar reasoning was used by the Nazi's. They believed that natural selection should be encouraged by culling out all lesser beings, hence the holocaust

Nice, I'm glad you brought this up. Ok, so the Nazis wanted to purify the genepool using Dawin-like principles (or, the ones used in dog-breeding, but it helps you more to blame this on Darwin so I can see why you worded it that way) I'll grant that. Do you know WHY they wanted to purify the gene pool? To get their race back to the "purity" it was in old times. See the Germans have an interesting religious past with lots of mythology in it (just like you). Theirs says that many years ago they were born from the gods and were super people who since then have watered down their holy blood and become impure and weak. Conclusion? The nazis used simple breeding principles that existed long before Darwin in order to kill millions of people based on their religious ideas!

That one was dug up in my Modern European History course and my History of Religion and Witcraft course at school. Also I've seen it repeatedly on documentaries about the life of Hitler. Where did you "dig up" that he didn't believe in that 0_o? He believed that the ancient Germans were the god-men of their religion who became weaker into the state they were at his time because of marrying non-aryans. And just for fun here, if he wasn't doing it for the reason I mentioned then why in the world would he? Makes no sense; Hitler was really into occult stuff like that (look at the lightning bolts and swastika...both ancient occult/religious symbols).

As for them tying this all into modern science and using Darwin to try to prove their point, well, yes exactly they did do that. They tried to use really broken and misguided versions of current science to "prove" their religious superstitions...just like Christians do today when they try to prove the wilder claims in the bible (no, not claims like did a certain city exists or a certain man, things like water-wine, creationism, etc).

And Catholics...well...they may not be "mainstream" now but they were for over a thousand years. Like it or not, you wouldn't be a Christian now if not for the Catholics keeping it around all that time. They may be the most old-fashioned, but at least they don't just have every Joe-sixpack coming up with his own idea of what Jesus was saying, then passing it on to people they meet.

People like that talk to young Christians, who are just learning all the problems with their religion, and start giving them easy answers to make the religion salvageable. Sorry kids, but those worries and contradictions you were noticing are true. There are no easy answers to make it apply to every single person; it only applies to most people by being changed and bastardized to the point that it has lost its meaning. 

The bible, like any large text of philosophy, requires an educated and trained spokesman to properly pass on the message. Also like any philosophy, it is unethical to reinterpret it beyond it's intended message, and just leave out mountains of its tenets, just to make sure the maximum number of people possible will agree to it.

If you want to have pre-marital sex, don't be Christian. If you are *beep*, don't be Christian. If you are a woman who wants equal treatment, don't be Christian. If you can't help but be envious or angry sometimes, don't be Christian. If you can't love your enemy, don't be Christian. If you cannot live up to what it asks of you, it isn't for you, but that doesn't mean just leave out the stuff that you know is crap and still call yourself Christian. Why not? Because if there was a God you'd be pissing him off more and more every day (but more importantly, you are fooling yourself, and who likes the sounds of that?)

He has specifically told you not to do these things and you walk around like you're on his good side. Lucky for you folks there is no God or he'd have your asses on a platter when you die. The idea used to be that you were supposed to try to live up to it, and when you can't you were supposed to beg for forgiveness every night and donate heavily to the church. Now they tell you in your churches that "it's all cool man, don't worry, it's all just like, a guideline on how to live your life".

Seriously...do you think that's what the religion has been about for all this time? You think the Crusades would have happened over a rough guideline? What about the inquisitions? Persecutions of Jews in medieval Europe? All this over a rough guideline? No...it has changed drastically to suit the people and the times, so what's left? This "guideline" thing is really new and nothing to do with what Christianity was meant to represent. So what is the point of it after all this changing and leaniency? Nothing. Christianity is simply a REFLECTION of the ethics and morality of a time and culture, not a BASIS for them. That is how to explain it's improvementss over the years.

So, if you're like I was, trying to figure out how someone so imperfect and average could possibly live up to God's will, quit beating yourself up. If you have to leave critically important parts of your beliefs behind to make sense of the world around you, let your reason guide you and stop trying to pound a square peg (Christianity) into a round hole (reality). If the idea of going out on a limb and living this way scares you, take heart that every year tens of thousands of people realize the same things you did and took the leap with you. Life if not scary or empty or sad just because you let go of superstitions; instead you can appreciate it for what it is. If you must call something Heaven, this is it, so start appreciating it and know that you are already pure and good enough to be here.

The western world is based on Roman law, not the Christian code of conduct. The Roman laws all existed long before Christianity came. Egypt had it's laws too, and in fact if you look at their laws and replace the words "I have not" with "Thou shalt not" you find the ten commandments (vastly predated by Egyptian law). They also had a huge list of other laws that are considered by you to be Christian except for they came first. Asia had a sophisticated law system based on social class with courts and laws and punishments (these people had no real contact with Christianity at all). The pacific (obviously too isolated for influence) has many different cultures each with their own laws and procedures. South America too had the exact same situation with penalties for murder and theft etc. Essentially, every part of the world has developed its own ideas of right and wrong. All of Europe comes from Roman law and other parts of the world simply developed these things on their own (again, ethics will come to people on their own).

About this family thing though...gotta laugh really. Every culture I'm aware of has a procedure set up for marriage and they existed long before Christianity. Sometimes yes the man would live somewhere else, but that was usually with his brother's family and his brother would live with his. Some cultures have customs like this to control the population and various other social requirements for their situations. Just because a family doesn't have a mom a dad and two kids doesn't mean they are backwards or something. More than half of all marriages end in divorce now anyway so obviously we are not MEANT to live in the type of setup Christianity (or more like you maybe?) dictates.

In the end here my point is you've done the same thing as the guy before you. You took some ideas of what Christianity does for the world (without any evidence that it does anything at all) and then claimed that the world was completely the opposite before Christianity came around. We are the same apes today as we were when we all lived in grass-huts at the sides of rivers. It is us apes who created the laws we live by because it makes life easier for everyone. Apes like us, all around with world with no contact early on developed our little ape-laws independently and would be following them still today even without Christianity. By the time Rome was one such ape-populated hamlet in about 750's BC they already had rules against killing and stealing and when that hamlet grew to control the world it left it's laws everywhere it spread.

If you want to say Christianity made people more civil then give one shred of evidence to back it up because all you've given is, like I said, your conclusions based on assumptions about what Christianity has done/is doing...and I know that set of assumptions to be half false and half thus-far-unproven.

Oh and BTW, Islam isn't based on Christianity, Islam is based on the same pre-Christian religions of the middle-east that your religion is. Yours didn't create Islam, they are brothers from the same parents (parents which you obviously are unaware of).

Thanks for the input from the muslim side of things. About whether Jesus EXISTED or not, I think we all can agree that there is a high likelihood he existed. I mean he isn't as well supported as say Plato or Socrates or Caesar but he still does have a couple sources which seem to be talking about the same Jesus Xristos.

yes but there is so many things that say he existed .....so many religions so many stories how can you say its wrong

If ur god is so mighty then i wonder why he hasnt struck me down yet for wat ive done. I stood in front of a bunch of ppl and lit a bible on fire. Now isnt ur so called god supposed to stop stuff like that?Wat about the ppl who sit there at 20 yrs old or younger sitting on their death beds begging good not to take them?where is he on that?Dont even think about saying it was their time b/c that is bull crap. no one deserves to die at a young age adn if there was a god he would have saved them. or the little kids with all the bone cancer?or some other kind of disease that there is no cure to?if there was a god wouldnt he have already put the knowledge into ppls minds to save these kids?NO he lets them die as little rats in scientist experiement.

"If ur god is so mighty then i wonder why he hasnt struck me down yet for wat ive done. I stood in front of a bunch of ppl and lit a bible on fire. Now isnt ur so called god supposed to stop stuff like that?Wat about the ppl who sit there at 20 yrs old or younger sitting on their death beds begging good not to take them?where is he on that?Dont even think about saying it was their time b/c that is bull crap. no one deserves to die at a young age adn if there was a god he would have saved them. or the little kids with all the bone cancer?or some other kind of disease that there is no cure to?if there was a god wouldnt he have already put the knowledge into ppls minds to save these kids?NO he lets them die as little rats in scientist experiement. "

-quoted from Justin

Satan is the one who has caused disease and destruction to the world. When Satan caused Adam and Eve to sin it caused sin to enter the world. Disease and sorrow followed.  Now u might ask why doesnt God destroy Satan well that goes back to before the Earth was created. When Satan was called Lucifer the highest angel in heaven. Lucifer was envious of God and wanted to be as powerful as God so he decieved some angels into following him convincing them that he should be as powerful as God. Then because he tried to overthrow God , God cast him out of heaven along with the angels that followed Lucifer. Now why didnt God kill him right there? Because if God had killed him it would have showed that God  wouldnt let anyone disagree with him and thus showing that the angels really wouldnt have free will. It would have shown that you have to obey God or you got killed like Lucifer.

God allows people to have a choice they can choose to follow him or not. God gave people free will because if he forced everyone to obey him we woudnt truly love him would we? We would just be robots to his will.

Mr. Sanelyinsane


you win the dumbest twat award.

lol clamps that was really offensive

Yeah I know my humour isn't really appropriate sometimes. I don't actually mean to offend really. I was just making the point that to some people the bible and fairy tales sound exactly the same.

Gah, now VU won't let me un-italic this text myself.  Well here is my somewhat delayed counter arguement, lol.

"And you don't see a problem with using it to base your life on? When you take out the vagueness, contradiction and superstitious lies you don't end up with anything more than simple concepts of right and wrong which all people of sound mind already know."

But again, there is more to Christianity than just the bible, or even god.  In one sense it is also the community--even if nothing else, churches can make good places for meeting friends and sharing ideas once a week.  Plus the bible is one approach to it, and there are multiple bibles and various interpretations of it too.  Yes, all people are raised with some sense of morality, but holy texts provide a continuation upon those ideas.

"ts interpretations are not what make it contradictory or difficult to follow. In any version of the bible you'll find that most of the commandments/lessons/etc are completely impossible to observe all the time. In fact, many of them would be quite harmful to our psychological health if we were somehow able to pull them off."

Which of the ten commandments would you be referring to?  When the bible speaks not being jealous or envious or lusty, it is a preventative measure to keep you from stealing, killing, or committing adultery.  Yes, I would agree that it is quite impossible to always keep these, because it's not really possible to hold back thoughts.  But then you need to wonder, to what extend did the author who wrote that portion mean by "think is as good as sinning?"  By playing out a scenario of rape/thievery/murder in your head, or just as a passing thought?

"So you would be incapable of self-reflection without it? Why go through silly rituals of "thinking at" an imaginary man just to reflect? We can easily go through such thought exercises without the need for all the other stuff that comes along with religion. 

Yes but again, why not?  Why is it inheritly bad or wrong or useless to take a religous route?

"If you want a club to get together and reflect with others try talking with your friends instead of lumping yourself in with the truly religious, which you are obviously quite different from."

Hm that doesn't sound all too different from the beginnings of a church :P.

"BTW, ethics absolutely teach you to be thankful for what you have 0_o I kinda thought that was a no-brainer."

Ah.  When I was speaking I was referring to "social ethics."  Yes, personal ethics do exist, but that is even more diverse.

"I bet you too have justified a way to get yourself into heaven without following it right? If you didn't come up with it yourself then your pastor has. And didn't someone in the bible try to warn you against false-prophets who would undermine God's word? Tsk tsk; you should have been more vigilant."

Well actually, by classic definitions I am not a Christian.  I am agnostic toward the idea of god and don't believe in heaven.  I identify myself as "progressive Christian" simply because that is the form of religion I followed growing up.  Most recently I am a Unitarian Universalist, which is in essence religion without needing to believe in gods or any higher power.

"Atheism, on the other hand, (unintentionally) encourages suicide, depression and even murder!"

No... atheism simply means one believes there is no god.

"Aztecs, Mayans etc. thought that sacrifices were a good thing. Murder meant nothing to anyone before the right and wrong had been established."

I doubt this.  Sacrafices were done by priests to slaves and a few willing individuals.  If an everyday Aztec or Mayan killed his neighbor, I'm sure there would be have been punishment.

I'd argue more but Clamps seems to have most of the newer posts covered.

dude, can I slap you really hard?

Firstly, why would the holy, graceful enlightened angels follow "Lucifer"? Was god getting desperate to fulfil his quota of angels so decided to skip the whole be loyal and trustworthy part of the recruitment requirements?

Secondly, how would someone that could show such clear jealousy get to become, "the highest angel"?

Surely he would make for a rather miserable angel in the first place and, as everyone likes to make out, god is supposed to know everyone and everything about them, what is going on in any one place and, ya know, when it's going to rain.. So how is it that he just happened to miss this epic event which spawned the entire concept of sin that would lead some humans to becoming some of the most vile creatures this world has ever seen?

Thirdly, how do you know this? Does god have a weekly blog where he updates people of what's going on in heaven or maybe back then he had magical fairies and elves deliver the messages to everyone in person?

Oh wait, let me guess, some crazy person decided one day that he was bored and told a load of people that, "GOD SPOKE TO ME!".

I don't know, please fill in the huge blanks here, I'm having trouble working out the logic in this....

Will do, Lucifer was a very loyal and trustworthy angel in the beginning. But what I said in the beginning God creates every being with free will, even angels arent forced to obey him, they choose. Lucifer became Jealous of Jesus(Son of God) because God was including Jesus in the creation of Earth and not him. So he talked to the angels and some agreed with him that he should be put as high as God by helping in Creation. So Lucifer and the angels went and talked to God about it but God did not put Lucifer as high as him, so Lucifer and the angels fought against God and his angels. Of course after the fight Lucifer lost and God cast him out of heaven. Thus Lucifer with a burning rage against God decided to mess up Gods creation and Lucifer saw that God loved the humans so he went down to Earth to decieve them.

Ill pray for ya Clamps :)

Then don't read it.

u kno clamps, by the harshness of your responses id say your annoyed at the fact you cant believe in God and even though you say your trying to convince others hes unreal, to me it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself hes unreal. The only other option is that you get some kinda demented joy out of insulting God and trying to upset those who believe in him..

:-)

"Yes it's harsh, but some people are strong enough to hear it straight without going to pieces." ~ Clamps.

That's how I would explain the reasoning behind religion. I've seen religious people, talked to them, spent time with them etc, it's like they 'depend' on religion just to live their lives. It's like a drug.

If there's one thing I know, it's that I don't want to be mentally attached to something, I'd like to be able to make my own decisions and what-not.

It's like a lot of religious people, aren't strong enough to go through life without going to pieces. Which is why I always feel a sense of weakness around some religious people.

P.S. Oh and that story is still a load of BS. Proof: You only answered 2 of my 4 questions, wonder why.

The thread isn't the problem. The thread is simply a whole series of debates. If a couple posts are a problem then report them but it would be ridiculous to delete the whole thing because someone got offended. We've discussed science, history and philosophy and if those things offend people then that is just too f*ing* bad for them I'd say. This is a great example of where the line gets drawn between freedom of speech and religious bigotry. If all the posts were saying "Jesus sux" then I'd be with you Elfy but most really just say "Jesus is nothing special" so report the problem posts and let's get on with things.

I'm not denying facts as if you can tell me the one where it says there no such thing as God then fine but you cant as that would meerly be an opinion, at the end of the day its my life and im alowed to do watever i want with it. I havent been displaying "blatant ignorance", I havent denied that there is nothing to prove gods existance but there isnt anything to disprove gods existance either, I read your views on it and I understand it, I have in no way displayed ignorance. Im not even a devout Christian, im luky to go to church once a year lol, personly i do wanna go more often but eh. Now would people like Gigantour please piss off and learn some respect for other peoples beliefs?

ok, sorry then, don't take it personally

change 'you' with 'some believers'.

and i am following this thread clamps ... atleast i'm not the one saying to delete what i don't like to read/see ...  i do care, no joke, just the same reasoning ( i don't see any difference, they can say there is a god, but if i say there is none, then i'm offensive?)

oh no clamps has gone over to....the dark side!!!