Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Did Jesus Exist ?

You dumb, simple-minded skeptic!!!

I WILL celebrate xmas for my children

M0r0n!!! This is proof you don't believe! (actually, your first post was)

No they aren't

Can't you see God everywhere you look?  Just think a while, take a look around you.  Look at what you have!  What if you didn't have these things, huh!?!  Howwould you feel then!?!  God is helping you have these things!    Look at your life and all the things you have.  Think about your future.  Think what could happen, good or bad?  Think about every single detail of your life and tell me, has been a good life?

Christmas, like nearly every other Christian holiday, is not even based on Christ originally. They ripped off this holiday from pagans at the time.

Yes, but tell me, if this holiday didn't exist, think of your life.  Think about what would happen!  This holiday is for Jesus, so be quiet!  The day he was born.

Also, Easter, the day he was killed...

Yet, this is my story all over again.  Where do bunnies come into this.  This is just enjoyment for the kids!

Repent, you idi0t and think on what I said.  If you don't understand this now, you will never understand this and be ignorant in every detail of your life.  You will be smart, but not wise nor open minded.  You will always be this, and you will never understand the true meaning of every singe thing in this world!

And when you die, what will you think, when you find that you are in heaven, still loved by God, but did THIS!?!  Would you think you don't deserve this and should be locked away in the lake of fire. That is when you will learn and be able to understand this.  That is when you become a wiser man thaen you ever would be, the moment you believe...

Think, just think...

Right, well Revenge is getting annoyed at this all at 4:49am

 Guess what, you're gonna rot in the ground and that is it. Bleak

Im sorry but I have to disagree, there must be something after you die, I cant see that it gos black.. and stays back
Im with Reincarnation on that one =]

1.  Have you ever had a strong dream about someone you have never met?
2. It seems more truthful to say there is something, I just dont know what

Point one : -  I have had quite a few strong dreams about two people, I believe they could well have been close friends in a differnt life, like when you walk into a cafe for eg and you feel like you have been here before but its in a different county
When you are very good at hand work , could you have been a craftsman in another life?

Point two : - You know Im not 100% on any of this and Id rather just say that theres something after but I dont know

====================================================

Jesus thing - Its too the believer, no matter how much you try to convince someone , if they don't want to believe they won't, its quite simple, people n this world have become very stubbon { No offence }
Santa - We all know Santa isn't real, however he is real to you at the tender age of say 6 year old, Santa brings people to together for another day, christmas is such a nice time { Providing you like your family xD }
I noticed just last christmas, Christmas wasnt such a strong feeling anymore, I guess Im growing out of it as most people do, Im glad at what I have got over the years and the memories are priceless

Look calling me names doesn't make the magic man any more real, and if he were, it would probably make him mad or something so cut it out.

But don't you even want to think you can live forever in a place eternally peaceful?

Yes, but I can't. Reason won't let me. Therefore I live my life knowing it counts for everything and take responsibility for my actions.

You have no meaning if you think you will die and that is it.  You are a cold, lonely no hope or even the idea or being happy

You are right that I have no meaning but forget that you don't either. We are just monkeys running around being monkeys. I'm not cold or lonely about it though, and I'm incredibly happy with a good family and a good life. I can see why you defend your god so much though, because you'd feel cold or lonely without him.

Goodbye, and leave this world in sorrow, pain and misery: that's what you have chosen for your life. There is no other thing that can be worse than the second death, which you might as well have chosen for yourself now..

First of all this entire post has been the most markedly un-christian thing I've ever heard a "true believer" say, and your religion says you should be ashamed of yourself. Secondly I've reported the last couple of posts because frankly, you need to learn a lesson about name-calling in a debate =p Lastly, I'm not suffering, not in pain or misery, and my soul is not dying. I'm a monkey being a monkey just like you. I'm going to go to bed now, to get back to my wonderful life with my wonderful girl before you start throwing more righteous feces at me.

Clamps puts things together pretty good ...

i don't hate believers, i was raised as a catholic, so, i too understand the meanings ... unfortunately, i find that many things they say just don't add up ... it is all to convenient, too easy ...

you boys, don't like our conclusion ...   an independent mind is dangerous to you? becuase it makes you doubt? because you can't control it? (hence, you get scared, because it is quite obvious that you are responsible for your actions?)

i don't need to believe in a god, to help my neighbour when he's sick ... it's just normal to do that (maybe i'll need his help next year?) (common desency), when i stop at the side of the road, to help a beuatiful girl change her flat tire , she always says it must have been god that sent me (just becuase i'm a friendly guy?)?

about your children ... we are not saying you should take away their 'holidays', our parents told us all some fairytales ... but then you grow up (well some people do atleast) ...

"you see god everywhere around you" ... i suppose he likes us, humans, warring all over? he likes us letting people die of famine? he likes it when my girlfriend gets run over by a car? etc ... not everything you see is a good thing (so, where is your god then? (and don't say he's testing us, that would be too easy)

and as clamps said ... pick up a book, read some history

not believing doesn't mean you lose respect to the world around you ... in fact it makes you more 'open' to things...   there is a thing called 'reality', you know.   don't you ever wonder where our 'western freedom' comes from (you'd have to read some history ofcourse)?

do you boys know what a dogma is? (and axioma's?)

Oh I know dogma...though I think you mean church dogma...just as I know you are dogmatic... I believe I used the phrase "Tunnel Vision" above to make sure you understood that... I suppose you did not...

Read history...lol oh how I have read history and am quite well read. I also have life experience to back that and to support it. I have Faith, you do not. This has nothing to do with history, or at least not until we both become history and see where we go then...

You also have a lot to learn, everyone has an independent mind... it does not make you dangerous, it make you...well...you. You cannot change my faith or my life experience. I recommend that you copy this thread and save it, so that when you do become enlightened one day, you see how foolish you truly sound...But rest assured...you will one day understand...and it will be your own choice, not through chats like this... Some day something will happen, and a bulb will go off...

Since you like History let me give you a quote from Benjamin Franklin, who was very religious, so do not read this wrong...he said, "If there was no such thing as God, it would be necessary for man to invent him".  What he was saying was the belief in God is what keeps most people sane and on a basically good path, and thankfully he does exist...this blind faith is the cornerstone to sanity...

As Confucius once said, "One's eyes are the the things that most get in the way of one's seeing".

well ok then, you can say all these things ... and yet you don't see your own flaws?     :-) funny

Hitler said things too ... i geuss i will have to take those for real aswell?

""If there was no such thing as God, it would be necessary for man to invent him".  What he was saying was the belief in God is what keeps most people sane and on a basically good path, and thankfully he does exist...this blind faith is the cornerstone to sanity..."
an example to show me how insecure you are about your own capabilities/beliefs?

The funny thing Clamp is that nobody really cares what you think. I am not a priest nor do I profess to be one, if you enjoy being damned then be damned...it is that simple...
you do realise that this makes you sound like a religious nut? you claim to be allknowing because you believe in the 'right' god?

What you do not understand is that good Christians try to break through your tunnel vision, not to be right, but to save you...  Hahahaha, save me? pathetic

I wonder how quickly your views would change if you had a child. This child IS your life, until you have one, you never will truly know what it is to love someone so unconditionally. Now, (and I do hope this never happens) imagine a car accident or some tragic occurrence that takes that child away from you ending his/her life... I wonder how quickly you would be to say, "Oh well my kid is worm food now...it was fun while it lasted".   atleast i don't blame some god for my misfortune ... what makes you think that we don't 'feel' anything? that we don't want the best for our children?

ahhh...kids... Education is important, but life experience and wisdom are just as important      indeed, yet i come to a completely different conclusion

you have 5 kids, ok, because you chose to? or because your god tells you you can't use contraceptives?  (just asking, not judging you, it is alright with me)

As a human being, which I imagine under your thick skull you must be, you would HOPE, that maybe, just maybe, we were right and you were mistaken... My friend that hope is what FAITH is all about...You would be surprised at just how many people find God while on their deathbed.  and you call us hypocrites? you can do whatever misschiefs during your live, no problem, god will redeem you anyway?  

i don't know were you teach (kindergarten, or high school or the university), but with all your experience in life ... you sure can geuss why i mention this ... maybe in your class people agree with you (because maybe if they did not, seeing how you react in here, their grades wouldn't be as good because they dared to question your beliefs?)  

The funny thing Clamp is that nobody really cares what you think. I am not a priest nor do I profess to be one, if you enjoy being damned then be damned...it is that simple...

First off, plenty of people care what I think because millions of people see the truth every year through seeing someone else do it right in front of them. There may not be so many in this thread, but in the other talking about this you find a pile of people just like me who were happy to join in the discussion on my side, and those who cared enough to oppose me like yourself (?) Second, there's no such thing as being damned. Boy this isn't a debate at all....sigh.

Christians try to break through your tunnel vision, not to be right, but to save you...

So that's why they come out with things like "have fun being damned" or "I pity your children"? Point me in the direction of a good Christian cuz I haven't seen one yet. All I see are a pile of arrogant *beep*s who want to seem like the good guys in a war over heaven and earth. Too bad guys, the war is in your mind, which is a good thing because you're own imagination is the only place you could win such a battle.

I wonder how quickly you would be to say, "Oh well my kid is worm food now...it was fun while it lasted". many people find God while on their deathbed

No, I wouldn't be surprised at all how many people find religion in these situations because I understand religion. You've given me examples of hopeless feelings which make people look to the sky for a loving god. Fine, I get that, but not everyone is so weak. Millions of people on this earth (maybe billions, I'd love to see some kind of census) do not resort to fantasies to deal with the troubles of everyday life.

As for Santa...When you say you would have your kids celebrate because it is what people do, you tell me a couple things about you...
1. That you are a hypocrite... why celebrate something that you do not believe in?

Two reasons. One: because after saying it three times you still didn't catch it I'm not repeating it again. Anyone else reading this should be able to pick it out and too bad for you if you still don't see it.... STILL. Two: Because xmas has nothing to do with Jesus anymore in the average home. Xmas, as Arvious was so nice to point out, is now about good feelings, happy kids and family. It's about traditions and fun. I'm not taking that from my kids, I WANT them to have happy family traditions. First of all I don't think it has much to do with Jesus anymore, second because I don't care if it does, it is for them not me. It doesn't harm me to go through the motions for my children, and I know that when I have them I would do it even if it did harm me. I'm not so stubborn that I think it will sully me in some way to put on a smile on a day that used to have something to do with religion. I've said how many times now that I understand it's use? Also, although I will teach my children what is right, I would never stifle them by not allowing them to see about what others think. It's not like I'll be angry if they read the bible. Hell if I hadn't read the thing I might still be a Christian.

2. You are a kid...How old? I am guessing late high school early college...probably early college, as that is usually when ignorant people who feel that they know everything, spout off such foolishness...
It is no different than High School...try telling a teen anything...lol, like you, they simply know everything...
In College, that same "know-it-all" attitude intensifies, only you foolishly believe that  a college education gives you some miraculous keener insight, so you must know what you are talking about.
ahhh...kids... Education is important, but life experience and wisdom are just as important... Anyone can go to school and earn a degree to teach, but can they control a classroom?

Ok, so those things told you something about me did they? I guess your ability to read people is as bad as your ability to read English written in front of you. First off I'm very late in my education, into 6 years now which is more than most college students do by 50%, though I started it later in life than most do. Second you haven't guessed my age at all, in fact I might just be as old as you. Lastly, I don't fool myself into thinking college gives a man insight or intelligence. I was smart and insightful long before I was even out of high school, and as for wisdom, having experiences does make us wise, and there are plenty of experiences to have no matter where you go. If I was to speculate though I'd say there's more food for the mind meeting people from all over, learning about their cultures and beliefs etc than sitting in an office or driving a taxicab. In this post you've shown me that 1. you tend to read into things wrong as a rule (crazy? dumb? who knows?) and 2. you somehow think that you've become wise as a result of your age, yet you come here and show everyone how deluded you are about that. You seem to know as much about yourself as you do me.

, but when you need to, you will understand...sadly, this takes MANY YEARS... I have seen it many times...

In this whole bit you're trying to give the tone of a man wise with years. I get that, you told me straight out earlier on so why beat around the bush now. Guess what, for all your years you were missing the point, and therefore I don't see any hope for you; you'll obviously die as foolish as when you lived.

again when you experience what I am saying, you WILL understand.

And some day when you learn to read what a person says before you criticize them you will find I already DO understand. Take some advice, slow down when you read because you're obviously going to fast for yourself....

As for my history background and your juvenile "Christmas is a pagan stolen holiday"... this shows how ignorant that you truly are...
Is there pagan root Historians know that they best way to determine what really happened is to compare writings from different regions..

Why thank you for regaling me with this wonderful story....it's only the 8th time I've heard it in recent memory but it's so charming. Now the Greeks had this wonderful thing called rhetoric, I'm sure you've heard of it. The big test for rhetoric was that at the end of a man's education he had to argue for a certain issue, then using the same facts argue against it. This has been a great example of it, because given the story you typed (thankfully saving me the trouble of doing it a second time on these forums) is an excellent example of why xmas as it is celebrated today is bogus. It is nothing but stealing a mishmash of traditions that already existed for hundreds and thousands of years, all around the world, relabeled, and given a good Christian name so as to make God happy. What's more you've shown how these traditions have their mythology all thrown into a blender with the lid off and whatever junk flies out sticks to the walls as a new story. Hell if the original stories were based on any fact there's none left now.

so despite your pigheadedness, you too will thankfully further the Legend...

What are you talking about?! I never said I was against Santa LOL! Wow you're a teacher huh? Guess what, so will I be in just a few short years, and I guess my kids are going to get better marks on their papers since I apparently can read and you apparently look at words and come up with whatever idea you feel will outrage you at that moment. How indignant can a man be that they must find a battle in every word uttered by someone they disagree with in general? *shakes head* Man.....

Musashji thanks for showing me that I haven't lost my ability to communicate or something because I was seriously having doubts that what I was typing was in some alien language. Anyway what you said about people doing good just because, and gods being everywhere something nice happens but nowhere around when something bad does: well thanks because you are far more concise than I am =p

Read history...lol oh how I have read history and am quite well read

What difference does it make? You've shown us that you don't know what to do with the words right in front of your face so you could have read an archive to yourself and still come out with the same silliness.

This has nothing to do with history

WHAT?! Pretty much everything has everything to do with history. Like Musashji said, history explains our western culture and all those things you believe. They came from somewhere you know. You didn't come up with it, you didn't use your mind, you just grew old and absorbed more and more of the culture around you. That isn't wrong if that's how you want to live but then you go on and claim that someday WE'LL be enlightened? He and I have both been religious people. I once participated in these types of discussions from your point of view and that's why I've heard all your crap before. The thing is that I grew past it... and you so arrogantly say that we have much to learn.... That may be true but only because everyone does, not because you are "advanced" in some way and it's all here for everyone to see. You want to call yourself a proper history teacher/prof and say this has nothing to do with history? You should take a refresher course on the importance of history.

Some day something will happen, and a bulb will go off...

It already has gone off, and does for many people everyday. That bulb says "Bing! Oh man.... I have something big to accept.... I've been wrong all this time, arguing and debating and shouting and hating all for the wrong side of the question. I have a choice now, do I keep up the charade or do I try to stand tall, in front of all those people I've embarrassed myself in front of, and accept that I've been a fool?" The thing is that every year there is a certain number of people who say what I just did and accept the delusion of gods and spirits, and there are millions of people who grow up think the same thing, then REJECT it.

 You think I'm so pigheaded or shallow? Then how can it be that I've been able to accept I was a fool? In general the pigheaded people aren't the ones who will admit to their friends and family that they've been a fool and then still have the courage to look those people in the eye. I've had my enlightenment; I've had my dark night of the soul and I know the pain of losing faith. That's why I get on here and discuss what I do because I'm no superman but I survived it. It is only proper that others who are in the midst of this dark night see that it is hard for people but that they shouldn't be embarrassed; they should be strong! They need to accept that there are thousands or millions going through the same thing right now and they will not be mocked, except by only the most crude and ignorant of the church they used to attend. In the end it will be worth it, because they will be wise enough to continue their own search for the truth and reach out to others doing the same, all while NOT taking away GIFTMAS from their children who are not ready for that journey.

it looks like everything is pretty convenient for you ... my options are open, unlike yours it seems.

you have no idea about my experiences, i'm  judged already because i don't believe in your ways ;-)  , so, i'll give you something to think about ... i died three times already (this is no bs, i have a heartcondition), i never saw this so called 'light' (a tunnelvision :-p (just to spite you)), there was only emptyness/blackness/nothing (the lights go out, and hours later they appear again; the only light i saw was the lamps in the surgery-area)(i geuss this would count as some serious experience, not?, so you can stop acting like i don't know anything, and like i haven't given this issue some serious thought)

your reply might be : because god saved me and brought me back ... yeah right, the surgeons were just standing there and watching god fix me up again? (50 years ago, i would've died at the age of 12, and i probably wouldn't have known i even had this condition)

if your kid dies, then it is wormfood, yes ... ofcourse you don't think about it that way, but it doesn't change the fact that that is actually the reality of things ... your/my kid would still live on after such a terrible event ... but not in heaven or paradise or whatever you want to call it, it will live on in your heart and mind, and the pain will never go away ...

so, don't talk to me like i don't know anything about 'loss' ...  if the people around me, remember me for what i was, then i'll be happy (ofcourse i will never know (i just have to have faith in that, or accept it as a simple fact)

franklin can say what he wants (it's not because it suits you, i see another meaning in that phrase, the one you refuse to accept)(and there is also the political context to add), do you want me to look for quotes by equally 'famous', 'political' people, saying the exact opposite of that claim?

people have commended me, for standing up against people like you, convinced of their own religious right ... does that make me absolutely right? no, it doesn't, it just shows that i'm not the weirdo you try to make of the nonbelievers.

yes, god created man ... what 6000  years ago?  :-p

everything before that was created by aliens ... hehehe

and we have to oppose you ... how will we change the world if we just accept what is being told to us (without checking the why, without checking the context?)? what if nobody ever questionned anything? ...   i have come to many conclusions, many of them i don't like, but if they make the most sense? i suppose you'd want me to lie to myself and say that i'm probably wrong?

a flock of sheep, and your god leads you ... i suppose we are the 'evil' wolves then? lol

no, God created man!!!

Ah, a fine point. Got any others though that one's all used up.

Revenge is right, you can't change a man, so that's that for you.

I don't think he'd be very happy with you telling people what he meant when you obviously didn't understand it. He says that it is true for everyone in this discussion; it isn't "for" me. Incidentally you can change a man; I was eventually changed from religious to not because I wasn't so arrogant as to ignore the truth in front of my eyes. You can't change a stubborn man though and that explains this thread. As for what you said before, I don't need to remember that you said it, I've said it before myself, and have heard it 100 other times, AND thought about it, and I think it's wrong.

Your second post was basically vainglorious prattle or some warped form of atheistic propaganda if you will, which went no place, but I will concede the I'm rubber you're glue part...got me there...lol

Clamp there is no end to this vicious circle because you will always say something silly and act as if you have said something that means something....Nobody cares... You can pretend that they do, but you matter very little... You are only one small fish in a very big sea... a lesson Odysseus had to learn, but at least he did...but again, that came with experience and a harsh life lesson...

K, you don't understand my points, you insult me out of the blue, and you are older. We have seen this many times from you already and it is getting old.

There are many good Christians right here who choose to continuously enlighten your small thinking...

Nope there are people using small thinking themselves who insult, guilt, and threaten someone who knows better into believing in nonsense long-since discarded. You have been angry, insulting, and an awful Christian this entire time. I accept personal responsibility for my tone, yet I suppose you want to let Jesus take that hit for you. We are both guilty of pride and wrath, but only one of us thinks there is anything wrong with that, so enjoy your damnation. BTW I don't feel like checking back on this whole thread but that turn of phrase was used, it was just likely deleted like a couple others from your good Christian friend for being inflammatory and insulting.

Billions hunh... You do know how many people are on this planet don't you?

Yes, and still stand by my statement. You don't know much about the people on this planet do you? And a teacher...good grief....

I find it humorous that you chose to change Christmas to X-Mas

This bit is fine.

in order to say Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus

But this bit is another chunk of you thinking you know anything at all about me or my ideas. You're ouclassed; why do you persist in making a damn fool of yourself. I write xmas because it is a shorthand that doesn't offend. I prefer to not bother capitalizing Christian but it's a bit of respect that persists even when dealing with people I have no respect for.

In your eyes you have a hypothesis, any antithesis is rubbish and fantasy, and there is no need for a synthesis as you are never wrong.

Actually, yet again you purpose to tell me something about me but are dead wrong. This is how the process went. I had been told some things and believed them (religion). Fine. I grew up and learned that it is a good idea to think about things before accepting them wholehog. I turned this question of God into a hypothesis. I presented myself with my antitheses and over time came to a conclusion. My understanding of God and religion comes as a conclusion, the culmination of 15 years of soul-searching, not some preliminary idea that has yet to be challenged. I started off where you are, I went through the process you claim I am incapable of (and that I'm sure you have no place to accuse me of because it APPEARS as though you've had no experience with it yourself), and came to an understanding of God as an idea like Justice, Good or Beauty, and NOTHING MORE.

I wonder if you are married?  If not...it explains much, if so, I am betting your wife tells you a lot that one of the major problems in your life is that you always have to be right and brow beat nonsense into her head

Not married yet (at least this time you didn't just make an assumption) but I'm involved. She tells me that I'm the smartest person she's ever met and that she had never thought about certain things in life the way I do, but she is glad she has had the chance. I'll have you know I get that kind of comment a lot, at least once every few months, and that is just from having typical conversations with typical people. Brow-beater? This discussion was one of facts, science, and philosophy before you walked in on it. Now it is nothing but personal attacks. What does that tell you?

only with me...you have indeed met your match. ;-)

Hardly! Get over yourself. You have someone politely telling you that you don't seem to understand what is written in plain English before you, and me who is sick of you and telling you directly: I've seen crazies, philosophers and scientists, and religious people of all those previous qualifiers in this thread. The majority are the kids you look so far down your nose at (ironic for a man devoting his career to them), and yet you come off by far as the most immature, arrogant and misguided one of them all. Your predecessors came to the discussion with the points of fact, science and philosophy, and ALL you have EVER brought is "When you're older you'll understand". I'm not sure if you've ever been a part of a debate before, but that is not a point whatsoever. It would be quite fallacious for me to accept what you say based on your age, especially when the number you insinuate does nothing to reflect the maturity, wisdom, or reason you've displayed so far. Met my match? I take offense on behalf of the people who came before you because you in no way measure up. Not measuring up to the kids you are so superior to? That would be a tough bit to swallow.

Just because you are so narrow minded, do not feel that God is not present during disasters

I can feel a lot of things in a lot of situations. I can feel Justice, Truth, Beauty, and yeah sometimes gods or if you must have it God. These are just feelings though. You know what else makes a person feel God? Drugs. You know what else? Near death (though this wasn't Musasji's experience but these things vary). Biopsychology has show us all these "feelings" are quite easy to emulate or trigger with a poke in the right part of the brain. Yes man, people feel things, but those are just feelings. This is like talking to a native shaman from the deep Pacific about what makes feel good when you eat bad berries....evil spirits, gods or alcohol?

You may claim that people are innately good and help just because...I can live with that, but I think it was God that put that "good" person in someone who needed help's path.

Lovely, you believe that then fine. This was a debate. You've told us what you believe which is remarkably similar to what half of the other people in this thread believe. The thing is nobody cares what you believe because they either do so themselves or used to and don't now. Bring some kind of point to the table PLEASE...this is getting old. Oh and try not to resort to that old gem "You'll understand when you're older"; it insinuates that there is no such thing as an adult atheist, when in truth the majority of atheists are adults. In fact...with that in mind...there's a good chance that you'll understand that when you get older. Of course I've offered much better than that if you read back the pages on these threads, so don't rely on it.

Except that is only your view if we took a poll in this thread of who was right I suspect you would have 1 vote other than yourself, while I would have a bit more...

Put up or shut up =p I think that if this were a real debate I would win (for the above-listed reasons). Since you've taken it from debate to pissing-contest I don't know or care who would win. Also apparently testing is yet another field you'd like to postulate about yet know nothing of. Guess all you want about the results I guess I won't waste my time.

Yes history is the backbone of everything... read... instead of misquoting... We were talking about what happens when you go into the ground being a question of faith and not one of history...

It is absolutely a matter of history. When a man traces his religion back to its roots and beyond he sees a much clearer picture of it. You know about historical context. Christianity was the necessary outcome of the times and culture, just as every superstition and folk-tale is a necessary outcome. What's more is when you've gone through this process with religions from prehistory to present, through the Orient, Europe, the Mediterranean, the Middle East (THE premiers source of our western religion btw), Africa and the ancient Americas, you start to see some trends. It all comes together and you see what really makes the machinery of a faith move and how it gets big where others fail (invariably politics and war). I could really go on and on but I think my friends in atheism already get my point. I understand that you need a label for the feelings you call God, but they are just feelings. If you must name them, then why not go to the source? Or give it all the names? Why do you think Christianity is correct? You only have Constantine (whom you mentioned) to thank for being a Christian today and as a history major you should be aware of it. What happens when we rot in the ground? The story is traceable through history and that's what counts. If you grew up in Israel you'd have one of two other ideas of what happens. In Africa you'd have another etc etc. Your faith is dictated by culture and history, and so I was just going to the root of the problem.

This paragraph just says that you are a lost soul...I wonder what was so traumatic in your life to turn you against both God and humanity?

Oh yes, pity me, that way you can maintain your air of superiority. I'm not lost, I saw the truth and embraced it. I don't feel lost; I no longer suffer confusion about existence (at least none in a religious sense) ; and I'm not traumatized. I didn't turn against God, I look at the idea as just that and stop attributing the common lies to it. As for humanity, you are clearly the one with no faith in it. You say that we are incapable of good as a society without fear of damnation. You say that the only way we could find ourselves in the position to help someone is by God's hand. You don't think x-number of people could have survived a terrorist attack without God. Well there are billions (YES that many) of people who attribute no god to those outcomes. Humans are responsible for all the greatness in the societies we have created for ourselves. The atheist has far more faith in mankind than the Christian and that is clear to anyone who has been both.

 Let it be known that you're making me reconsider who I can even discuss this with though. I used to think that anyone can have an intelligent discussion  about this so long as I'm patient, but it seems that for those who have not lived both sides of the fence. I hate to pull a thunder but I'm REALLY starting to consider that you just need to live a little more, to experience doubt as well as faith, and then you'll know enough about your opponent to even step into the arena. Most people I discuss this with have some understanding of where I'm coming from. They anticipate objections, they can follow my reasoning, even at remarkably young ages, and yet you seem to have no idea. Not only do I suppose you've never been an atheist but I'm starting to wonder if you've ever even had a discussion with one before. Everything I say seems so alien to you yet these "kids" seem to understand just fine, absorb it, and come back with a point of their own. I might just have to walk away from this talk if it doesn't get any new blood because you are not offering discussion at all, only condescension.

Clam you are arrogant and self absorbed.

I have told you that I felt that although educated, you profess to know more than you actually do.

I have told you that you are lost, and stand by it... You also know this to be true... When you are alone walk the beach and what goes through your mind would explain why you are lost...only you can answer that one.

I have also told you that you are rude, what you posted in the other thread was disrespectful to many people. Say what you want to me, I can take it, but the attack you made on Christianity was an attack on everyone else here who believe such, some who took no part in the conversation... it was a vulgar bashing that says quite a bit about your character.

You should also know that dating and marriage are 2 very different things... dating is like fishing...both are infatuated, and put up with things that they feel they can change later or even ignore all together as they are trying to land the "perfect mate"...

However when you become married, things change quite a bit, and when you have children they change all the more...Where you once stood confident & proud, you now resort to "yes dear" to prevent a major brouhaha. One day when you are married and your wife complains that you must always be right, when she accuses you of browbeating, when ironically she calls you "teacher" you remember me...I'll be the voice in your head saying I told you so...

You my friend are worse off than Mushaji and his limited education...you Clamps are a clear example of a wasted education...

so, your wife is also tired of you always wanting to be right?     rofl    (yeahyeah, i probably misunderstood that?  :-p)     and then you lie to her by shutting up?    you're a real man, i must say that ...

i'm the one doing the misquoting?

my phrase : sure students have free will, lol, and you just seem like the person to respect that should they disagree ...  they'll be damned if they do  (your own words)

your reply : Again a misquote... Being Dammed is for doing Hellish things, not getting an education...Now you are also a fool...lol

now read it again, and tell me who's misquoting who ...

you're acting rather childisch, if i may say so, you can't corner me, so, by your standards i'm automatically uneducated and dumb ... real mature reaction, if i may say so again :-p

i can tell you how america got involved in the war ... and it took them a really long time to do that (getting involved) ... but that would be a completely different discussion (lots of books about that issue though, probably not the whole truth, but anyway, nothing is perfect (except you ofcourse :-) )

Musashji, you so far have made no point, maybe simply to be funny... lol.

Clamps is the only one actually putting up a worthy argument, despite his ignorance to the truth right in front of him.

Listen, you've appealed to authority this whole time but I reject your authority

This is what I was talking about ^

you're acting rather childisch, if i may say so, you can't corner me, so, by your standards i'm automatically uneducated and dumb ... real mature reaction, if i may say so again :-p

Now, you are starting to act like Clamps.

Clamp, you need to think outside history, like I said before, skeptic:

WHAT?! Pretty much everything has everything to do with history. Like Musashji said, history explains our western culture and all those things you believe. They came from somewhere you know. You didn't come up with it, you didn't use your mind, you just grew old and absorbed more and more of the culture around you.

History does come into this: however, so does JESUS!  Explain that!

Two: Because xmas has nothing to do with Jesus anymore in the average home. Xmas, as Arvious was so nice to point out, is now about good feelings, happy kids and family. It's about traditions and fun

You have misinterpreted much more than me, yes I may have misinterpreted a couple of things, but I understood most of what you had to say.

Erm.. you said something about a hypothesis, so...

Yes, this is a hypothesis, that is what this entire post is, a hypothesis

You made a false hypothesis, then because you see God in true miracles, like 'a baby surviving a tornado'.

So, now I'm back here posting, less heated by playing internet stategy games lol, and here to 'try to break through your tunnel vision, not to be right, but to save you...'

Exactly, but I didn't want to say acouple of things so I didn't mention that part about Mary and Jesus in your post...

Clamps, you are a insulting, simple-minded skeptic...

...

Look, you two are guilty of every insult you throw at me. Simple minded, hard-headed, brow-beater, arrogant, superior, blow-hard, unintelligent, rude, insulting, wrong, vain, pointless, irrational, unreasonable, childish and foolish. However you are both proof to me that a person can be all of those things without realizing it, so I'm going to grant that I may be all of those things as well (although you are the first people to call me most of those things, ever in my life). Basically I'm going to try ignoring your bs now and see if it stops lol. That aside, this was a debate and I'm determined to bring it back to that. I'm sure you guys are up for a discussion and not just pissing in the wind right? I'm ready.

Ok so at one point I think in the other thread I put together some similarities between the Jesus myth and other myths of godmen that occurred before him. My conclusion was that Jesus was just the most recent (except for L.Ron Hubbard maybe) in a long line of celestial godmen in mythology. I happened to mention this to a friend last night who showed me a video he had found online. I would love if you guys would comment on the video though I know a lot of people on forums just ignore videos posted =/ If you'd like to though, maybe let it load and start it off at about 9:40 seconds in. What comes before actually adds nothing and is sort of satire of Christianity in a way but doesn't actually offer much that won't insult you and make you stop watching and that isn't my goal.

So yes, 9:40 in, part one it says, "The Greatest Story Ever Told," it is a pretty distilled version of the story of how Jesus came to be a story like he is and it is fairly well done. I'll caution anyone who is apt to believe this straigh off the line (atheists) not to get involved with this video because the man obviously has an agenda other than just clearing up historical inaccuracies. Also you'll notice a change in tone during a little part where they are talking about the symbology of the cross which is, frankly, just conspiracy theorism. The research on other godmen is pretty much perfectly sound though. I'll caution believers who watch it to take notes of anything they disagree with factually and try to find out for yourself. I think you'll find in that sense it's pretty solid, but I don't have time for a history lesson with every post so please if you think there is something wrong and you know it another way then post it. Consider the video my initial source on all of this (just to save time, because there is a LOT of info that comes fast and no one could reasonably reject ALL of it right?)

Lastly, I think the main discussion about this all is going to end up being about the implications of all this info so put on your philosopher hats. As for the part of the video afterwards I haven't watched yet but I'm told it isn't quite as strong so don't quote me on anything after part 1. Please watch it is really neat (9:40 in).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5547481422995115331

What I do mean is that you live for humanity as a whole. You say God is present in everything, but for the time being let's just say it's humanity

This is quite similar to how I see it too. I say lets just talk about humanity and the world in a straight, honest manner that everyone can communicate in. By referring to the world as mankind and physics, people from all cultures can communicate between each other as opposed to injecting religion into everything and isolating ourselves from people who have differing religious views. Isn't this why many countries forbid the teaching of religion in school?

When they both die, who has lived a more fulfilling life? Who is more deserving of heaven?

Precisely. Well said. (Though I take the word "Heaven" as an idea the way I see it, but whatever I think we still mostly agree.)

There have been thousands of confident religions.....

This bit and what comes after was the premier inspiration to look into this stuff. I think to any believer who really considers this fact (also the type of thing you find in that video) they should be shocked into researching it themselves. Anyone who wants to know the truth of whatever religion they belong to should start first by reading the holy book, but then by putting it down and picking up a history book to find its roots. Each religion is the necessary outcome of its times (zeitgeist as it were =p) and to those who feel any doubt or seek "answers" about their religion, the trail of history will explain A LOT.

If you REALLY want to convert someone to Christianity, do it with a show of love, NOT by repeating over and over in their face that they're going to hell and are worthless without divine guidance

Good advice for anyone, just wanted to point it out again if only for repetition's sake. Lastly, I've found a version of the video I recommended which cuts out all the stuff I was suggesting didn't matter much to our discussion:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5216975979627863972

yup, that's the way people like you handle themselves ... austriches do the some ... burry their heads ...

run away, run away, run away  :-)   back into the bubble, close all curtains, barricade the frontdoor, so you don't have to see/think ...

did you even look at that movie (only the first part)?  as a history-teacher you have the obligation to watch it (and maybe refute it if you can, evrything said can be looked up)(you do know what a museum is?), you owe that to your students ... responsibility as a teacher.

again, i ask you to show me the error of my ways, my so-called misqouting, etc ...

you chose to be a coward ...

Oh don't get me wrong, I still think you have the brains of a slug, and I will be all to happy to say that, I simply choose not to post any more long winded messages...

You simply are not worth the effort...

For the record every time you posted..."your words" it was a misquote... you take everything out of context including my running away, I am very much still here, just not caring how you think...

Ah clamps...I am still here, just not ranting anymore. I will still from time to time call you a Neanderthal as you think like one...

You are kind of like the guy in Plato's cave, only you came back and chained yourself back up...lol

Haven't watched it yet, will soon, and if Clamps is a Caveman, how is he using the computer? lol :-)

Ahh so now he protests to tell me what I can, and what I cannot post, sorry little boy this is not the big blue house and you are not the big brown bear...

Oh come on, now that's just flaming for the sake of flaming.  Why don't we talk about completely non-controversial subjects, like Iraq and Abortion?