Universe Creation

Universe Creation

22:39:57 Jul 2nd 07 - Mr. Mijamoto Mushashi:

No, definately 'walhalla', in the book it says walhalla, the book is never wrong!

22:49:39 Jul 2nd 07 - Lord Sanosuke Sagara:

omg!! 501 posts

*see the pun!! huh huh!! see it?*

23:45:36 Jul 2nd 07 - Mr. Dakarius:

You guys should try argueing with a Fundamentalist....you will always loose.

00:30:44 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Vasmur:

All things that we know is based on some thing else. Its a constant loop of ideas that protect each other. If one thing in that loop is under question, then all the ideas involved with it seem falseified. Every thing has holes in it, its only how apparent they are that decides what is fact and what is not. Theres proof for science and theres proo*beep*ainst science. Theres proof for religion and theres proo*beep*ainst religion.

For those who dont believe that there is proo*beep*ainst science then answer these questions
*where did the energy that caused the big bang to occur come from? And where did the thing that created the energy come from? and so on.

* why is there a huge diffrence between the recent ancesters of man (i mean the ones who came directly before us) and man in what is considered a incredibly short period of time for that type of evolution to occur?

*Look at the percent of likely hood of life evolving from scratch, how likely is that really?

for those who do not believe that there are flaws in there religions ideas
*why were we created?

*what created god?

*What about the thousands of facts supporting evolution?

for those who say there is no proof in scienctific theorys
*What about all the tests they run?

for those who dont believe in religious theory
*why is it that every civilization has a story o*beep*reat flood, or a single(or in the case of polytheistic religions dominant) god?

Q&A on difficult religious and scientific questions
*If there is a god why is the world such a terrible place? Because it wouldnt be a test of your true character if you were given everything. what would be the point of heaven and hell if earth was easy to live on?

*Why does religion seem so corrupt? because it is run by man. Humans have a tendency to do what ever they want if given the correct back up.

*If we havent seen the tests to prove the sciencetific how do we know there not just messing with us? same goes for religious theory.

What im trying to say is that when it comes down to it every thing we know is opinion and not fact. there is no point to attack each other because you refuse to study all the sides of a matter with equal time.

For those who continue to deny science
*why do many religous leaders support the study of science in the past few years?

for those who continue to obsess with science
*why is it that many major scientist still believe in god?

btw sorry for the long post

00:46:44 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Revenge:

aaaaaahhhhhhh my head hurts...

01:34:52 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Neratu:

Does life have to come from life? Can an inanimate object spawn life under the right conditions?

01:41:54 Jul 3rd 07 - Sir Bruto Cikayson:

Amino acids have been naturally formed from pure elements in labratories before. Given enough time, life could eventually form in a lab too.

01:50:26 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Sakaal II:

I lied. On two accounts. Namely: 1) I'm not dead. 2) I am going to continue this debate.

In the following reasoning I use the word "Everything" to denote everything that has, does or ever will exist.

No cause can exist for the coming of existence of Everything, because nothing can exist before something does.

Causality is observable, therefore it exists. In other words, Everything includes causality.

It follows that Everything must have come into existence without anything to cause it.

Actually, it is quite natural to state that there cannot be a cause for the first cause, which obviously would not be the first cause, if there was any before it.

However fortunately there is no reason to assume that Everything needs a cause to come into existence. Why couldn't there be even an unlimited amount of the so called "first causes" happening everywhere all the time endlessly, even after Everything already existed, coming into existence or disappearing again without anything to cause that? Indeed, in modern quantum physics a similar idea is called vacuum fluctuations or virtual particles that can be explained as a manifestation of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle.

Also note that if a Creator existed, Everything (by its definition) would include the Creator, because it includes everything that has, does or ever will exist. Actually, "Creator" would be just a synonym for some "first cause" or causes. So, if some Creator existed, it would be the sum of all the "first causes", i.e. all the vacuum fluctuations. That would make God a kind of random noise with powers described by probabilistic distributions and scaled by the reduced Planck constant. In fact, the word "God" is no longer needed for the purpose of explaining Universe creation, because we can do it better without that word.

04:01:32 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Vasmur:

well that was obviously incredibly well thought out but I'm going to try to argue against you.

According to your post the closest thing to god are vacuum fluctuations, because they can create something out of nothing. I agree on this idea but i do not see why it would be more effecent to leave the word god out of the equation. You said that one of these created the universe or became the universe. If one of these things that you consider the closet things to god became the universe then you should consider every thing the fluctuation became the new closest thing to god. There fore the elements it created became the new god and since we are made of those elements then we humans(along with all other life and inanimate objects) are god.

lemme clarify this by your definition god became us, therefore we are god.

definition of god
the Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe

it fits the definition perfectly. If we go by the definition of being as existing then your flunctuations became or created the universe. Finally the combination of all the parts of god control what happens in the universe or rules what happens.

by definition your flunctuations fit the word god, therefore its a word that would be used to describe the entire idea effectively, where it would only be ineffective if you want to describe it indepth.

what im trying to say is that in this plane of existance we cannot prove anything 100% because one fact could be interperted many different ways.

i personally could careless if god exists or not. I think that whether there is a after life or not it will always be equal for everyone. either we simply disapear from existance and we wont have any emotions to care, or we will all go to the same place. Even if there was a heaven and hell i would not go to hell, because in all the the religions there are no rules against not caring or the neutral area im in.

04:20:02 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Game And Watch:

Does life have to come from life? Can an inanimate object spawn life under the right conditions?

Yes, I know because this is how I was made.

04:33:10 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Vasmur:

oh yeah i forgot to anwser that. In my first post i wasnt sayiying life cant spawn under certain circumstances from inanimate objects what i was saying is that the likely hood of the right circumstances to form life from something inanimate comes around very rarely, and even when the chance comes it doesnt mean that it will occur. even with the right circumstances the chances are extremely slim.

sorry if that was pointed to somewhere else

05:46:28 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Dakarius:

I'm quite happy with my god tyvm. I see no further point in continueing this debate. It is obvious that atheist demand hard evidence when there is none, as it is equaly obvious believers wont give up their faith. So why continue.

Now about creating something from nothing, how did your theories go?

06:47:11 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Vasmur:

Well sakaal said and i quote "However fortunately there is no reason to assume that Everything needs a cause to come into existence. Why couldn't there be even an unlimited amount of the so called "first causes" happening everywhere all the time endlessly, even after Everything already existed, coming into existence or disappearing again without anything to cause that? Indeed, in modern quantum physics a similar idea is called vacuum fluctuations or virtual particles that can be explained as a manifestation of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle."

then on my comment i said that quantum physics can be intererpted to support science ex: using the word god oversimplifies things, or it can support a fusion of science and religion ex: if a flunctuations can create destroy or warp(im not sure about warp) things then who is to say that these flunctuations dont have a conscious, or you could go with the interpretation that i said in my other post.

06:49:18 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Vasmur:

if you want to know more about the theory itself ask sakaal he appears far more edjicated than me on the topic, the only reason i am able to argue against him is that i can see a million ways to interpret a fact.

09:32:34 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Sakaal II:

Vasmur, yes, actually you gave the same definition for the word "God" I did.

Dakarius, to really understand the creation ex nihilo you should study the quantum field theory. Here is a simplified article explaining quantum fluctuations. Click on the links.

09:42:48 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Sakaal II:

And of course, if you like to know anything else, you can start for example from here:

A Review of the Universe

You can add it to your favorites, if you have enjoyed following this thread.

09:59:58 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Vasmur:

Sakaal the definition is not what matters, it is the interpretation of defintion that matters. I did not spend my time changing the grammatical structure of your post. I simply retraced the facts that you mentioned so that readers who are skiping around know what im talking about. Then at the end i placed my interpretation of the facts.

quote "Also note that if a Creator existed, Everything (by its definition) would include the Creator, because it includes everything that has, does or ever will exist. Actually, "Creator" would be just a synonym for some "first cause" or causes. So, if some Creator existed, it would be the sum of all the "first causes", i.e. all the vacuum fluctuations. That would make God a kind of random noise with powers described by probabilistic distributions and scaled by the reduced Planck constant. In fact, the word "God" is no longer needed for the purpose of explaining Universe creation, because we can do it better without that word."

your interpretation of facts said there is a god but it simply creates, which makes the word god useless because it cannot change historical events(when i say this i mean wars and the such) or judge.

quote "lemme clarify this by your definition god became us, therefore we are god."

this does not lead the word to be useless, it could mean god is a collective concsience as believed in shaministic beliefs.

btw thanks for the links

10:11:10 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Sakaal II:

Actually I did not say god simply creates. I said the word "God" is not needed for the purpose of explaining creation. Furthermore I did not say there is a god. I merely argued what it would be, if it did exist.

10:23:46 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Sakaal II:

More precisely I argued what god would be as a creator, if it existed. I was not discussing the other meanings that might be associated with some god or gods. After all, this is a thread on Universe Creation, so to stay on topic we should discuss the aspects of creation and not something else.

12:31:06 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Mbeidas:

i am in my uncle house he have this computer and not always good wait until i am back to my house

i got proofs and proof in koran and flex net will be soon get hacked by my cosin .

just let me tell you in my house . stop talking about god he can see what eyes see , as he said :

"he knows what eys can see and what hearts wishs"

12:31:07 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Mbeidas:

i am in my uncle house he have this computer and not always good wait until i am back to my house

i got proofs and proof in koran and flex net will be soon get hacked by my cosin .

just let me tell you in my house . stop talking about god he can see what eyes see , as he said :

"he knows what eys can see and what hearts wishs"

13:37:51 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Mijamoto Mushashi:

MBEIDAS, ask your uncle for some explanations, maybe he has a broader view about your religion, and can put some things in context ... (you will not find proof in the koran, or the bible ... you only find statements and dogma's ... which unfortunately will not do)

17:44:44 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Killer:

Humans needed something to explain the creation of life, so they created an idol, a God. They changed the Gods over millenia, but the principle of them is still the same. Gods are to fill in gaps which humans don't understand. Humans have to have things make sense, they can't just let something happen, without knowing how it happened. We are far too curious really... They also are very biased, God created us in the image of him. I'd highly doubt, that if there is a God, he'd create us to look like him. Why wouldn't he look like a cow, or a dog, or another thing altogether. There are millions of types of creatures, plants and fungi. The only reason they think God looks like us, is that they think we're smarter than all the other life, just because we go around and wonder about things. We're successful, but not the most successful life that has ever existed, most insects, are more successful than humans, and rats, and fish, and so forth.
Why should s/he have the same look as us? Got to get off, so I can't finish this post :(

18:39:30 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Mbeidas:

i had a proof in koran and can be historical proof that koran knew a thing before it hapened .

i will also look for sites not for muslims will say the history

you will see the power of God it will be last time to say cuz i cant go more in this subject cuz we are end of universe

now i will say if ther is god he would be the creater of the universe .

and he is only got the right to e worshoped.

we dont look like God and angels dont also like us nor do elfs .

it was only an imagine that angels are babys and that. just wait all

18:44:56 Jul 3rd 07 - Mr. Mijamoto Mushashi:

Are you in any way related to the things happening in England?

' the universe is at it's end', 'my cousin will hack', ...

10:40:20 Jul 4th 07 - Mr. Mbeidas:

nah

its all historical i am looking in history on eurpoe about eastern roman empire after i back my house today i will right maybe a page

22:23:01 Jul 4th 07 - Mr. Mbeidas:

Mr. Mbeidas

Edit post

7/4/2007 5:12:38 PM

to some people first thing god creat was a pen and ordered him to wright so it wrote the quran .

ok i am home i will write the evidence here and then copy paste it in jesus as roman and in universe creation also the great evidence that quran is a book from god which mean ther is one and he made the universe a thing quran said it will happen and it happened in 7 years later as it said .

"the persian emparor attack what is now palestine and syria he took the money from most of churchs and the jews was fighting with him as rebels on the eastern roman empire because they treated them bad .

as the koran say in a verse named as "roman verse"

alm * the romans were beaten * in the lowest land and after they are beaten they will beat their enemies * in few years , god who have the choise what to happened before and after , and when that happened the faithfull will be happy *

god is always truly say

now this is the subject the , this is your life barny ,sakaal , iwasfrozen , dake

and all people on earth its the proof evidence

i will translate all now alm its alot of words starting in koran when mohamad told us he said god didnt give me the meanings of them so i dont know .

the romans were beaten the romans was beaten by persia and the historical right i looked in internet also the romans were beaten by persia and alot of people said romans will not get palestine and syria back .

abu baker after he heared the words from mohamad he said its ight but the people of mecca said its imposible and mohamad is lieing all notice that this meaned they were still in mecca and before the leaving to al madina in 1 year

in the lowest land and after they are beaten they will beat their enemies

this is the coolest thing , if mohamad really invent the koran the lowest land ment in JERCHO in palestine its the lowest land like 400- low than the sea and historical it says that the final battle between persia and romans to get back palestine was near jericho and they won.

now tell me people only knew that jericho was the lowest land in the 20 sentures how mohamad knew before 1428 or 1427 cuz we said it was 1 year before the leaving .

in few years , god who have the choise what to happened before and after , and when that happened the faithfull will be happy .

the few is always known as 3 - 9 . romans got palestine back in 7 years and koran said in few ye*beep*M>, its historical and i cheked all that took me time and i was in my uncle's house that's also took me time .

and when that happened the faithfull will be happy .

the pretty good thing that abu baker wagered the mecca people on 100 camel (that was before the wager is bad in consider of islam) it was always bad but islam took the learning little and little as you cant change in a day and night.

back the proof the chrtions are not the faithfull will be happy they got back no no the meaning was

1) mohamad and the small bunsh of muslims made their point that koran is right.

2)abu baker won 100 camel but he didnt have them cuz in this 7 years the wager is said to be bad and not good .

THIS IS HISTORICAL PROOF THAT KORAN HAD A FUTURE SEEN AND SCINTFIC SEEN MOHAMAD WONT HAVE IT IN HIS AGE AND SURE THAT THER IS GOD

i wish all world read this cuz i want to help you

thanks for reading

mbeidas i am not gonna die why i am saying this

17:37:01 Sep 22nd 08 - Mr. Razai:

why would someone have a thread about a sensitive subject that have impacted so many people into believeing nothing anymore. before posting topics think of others' situation and how one disicision on a topic can lead to disatorous impacts to that persons life. I believe my friend wen he says

Mr. Dakarius

Report

7/2/2007 10:46:28 PM

now for those who want to look into this more adn get teh truth from someone other than an uneducated peer go here. it is true http://www.evanwiggs.com/articles/reasons.html#primer

as a summary: it says that the chance of a "big bang" far less than speling a simple word with 26 letters, adn to even the odds still far less than getting hit by lighting. and still to even the odds far less than hearing the actually voice of God. other facts---- fossils dont show an evolutionary shift in any of the jarassic eras or watever other one there r (i have no need in knowin the eras). also about the same time darwin came out mendel was learning about peas his original hypothesis--------if you cross a white adn red flower can you get a pink (aka if you bread a Acanthocephala and a Annelida (two different worms from two different phylems) then you can get another phylum aka evolution)...........hmmmmmm

and also carbon,argon adn nitrogen dating is flawed by a ratio of 2000yrs : 65 yrs

also were was the oxygen in a starile heated planet after a big bang to support life. life wouldnt exsist. and after a big bang it could be clear that the atmosphere was clouded or restrictive toards sunlight aka no energy.

and those missing links? if you did more research and checked the research dates you would relize that once it was considered a humaniod but later classified as a chimpanzee.

ill stop there but go to the site for a more educated guess as to creation. and rememebr it is a theory and it has its flaws; however, we were never there to know so y argu?

09:18:14 Sep 23rd 08 - Mr. Opportunity:

I was raised at a Christian school and was essentially force-fed the words of the bible. I find that many of the Hardcore christians have something that they regret in their lives. For instance, my 7th grade teacher wasn't religious until she got pregnant at 17 then she got super religious.Oh well, none of it matters. As long as whatever you choose makes you a good person, I dont care. I believe that that is the original reason for religion anyway.

21:34:49 Sep 23rd 08 - Sir Ice Ice Baby Ice:

Lol, bring back the dead thread.com

21:53:24 Sep 23rd 08 - Demonic Shezmu:

one word...Spore!

22:06:17 Sep 23rd 08 - Duke Gilthanas:

OMG you beat me to it!

00:56:52 Sep 25th 08 - Mr. Arvious VII:

I know how the universe was created!

It all starts back in the year nothing.

See, there was this flying chicken that saw the universe and said, "This place looks boring." So the chicken did a little disco, and then he made the universe. The reason the universe is moving apart is so they can get away from the pervert chicken.

There, this is truth. :-P

21:00:00 Sep 25th 08 - Mr. Ant:

please shut up.

23:22:41 Sep 25th 08 - Duke Arzun:

Mr. Razai... I don't believe you spelt and correctly once... I couldn't even bare to read anything in that garble you spoke.

04:05:59 Sep 26th 08 - Mr. Dakarius:

shameful. Just what are they teaching kids these days?

16:27:40 Oct 9th 08 - Lord Wolven Warrior:

Wow this thread is old....xD

Anyway, I am a christian, so naturally I believe that god created the world...want proof? read on...

In the last 30 years a number of prominent scientists have attempted to calculate the odds that a free-living, single-celled organism, such as a bacterium, might result by the chance combining of pre-existent building blocks. Harold Morowitz calculated the odds as one chance in 10^{100,000,000,000}. Sir Fred Hoyle calculated the odds of only the proteins of an amoebae arising by chance as one chance in 10^40,000.

...the odds calculated by Morowitz and Hoyle are staggering. The odds led Fred Hoyle to state that the probability of spontaneous generation 'is about the same as the probability that a tornado sweeping through a junk yard could assemble a Boeing 747 from the contents therein.' Mathematicians tell us that any event with an improbability greater than one chance in 10⁵⁰ is in the realm of metaphysics -- i.e. a miracle.¹

Harold Marowitz, an atheist physicist, created mathematical models by imagining broths of living bacteria that were superheated until all the complex chemicals were broken down into basic building blocks. After cooling the mixtures, Marowitz used physics calculations to conclude that the odds of a single bacterium reassembling by chance is one in 10^{100,000,000,000}. ² it's more likely that I would win the state lottery every week for a million years by purchasing just one ticket each week.

Click Here for the site I got that information from.

Also...

Darwin's Theory of Evolution - Slowly But Surely...
Darwin's Theory of Evolution is a slow gradual process. Darwin wrote, "�Natural selection acts only by taking advantage of slight successive variations; she can never take a great and sudden leap, but must advance by short and sure, though slow steps." Thus, Darwin conceded that, "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed, which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down." Such a complex organ would be known as an "irreducibly complex system". An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If even one part is missing, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. Thus, such a system could not have evolved slowly, piece by piece. The common mousetrap is an everyday non-biological example of irreducible complexity. It is composed of five basic parts: a catch (to hold the bait), a powerful spring, a thin rod called "the hammer," a holding bar to secure the hammer in place, and a platform to mount the trap. If any one of these parts is missing, the mechanism will not work. Each individual part is integral. The mousetrap is irreducibly complex. [4]

What is stated there could not be proved when Darwin wrote this, but with the advances made in recent times, we now know that many such organsms exist, including the heart.

Click Here for the link to the webpage where I got that information.

19:22:38 Oct 9th 08 - Lord Charley Deallus:

Yeah then someone will just come on and say "but there was a chance that life could have started in that 10^{100,000,000,000} there was life created"...I stop arguing in here because people can never agree on anything...some people dont believe in God so they cannot believe in that...I dont believe in the creation story as it is written in the Bible because I feel that it was figurative, not exactly as it says. The Bible has a lot of things that are figurative

04:07:50 Oct 13th 08 - Duchess Nog:

The bogus 10^{100,000,000,000}number is based off of a cell as we currently observe them. However, this calculation fails to consider that even single cells have evolved greatly from simple strands of chemically-attracted proteins to life as we perceive it today.

Research abiogenesis.

And also, never pull research from religious organizations. Their "skepticism" only goes so far as science, but absolutely smashes the wall when it comes to religion, believing that God must exist with no evidence to confirm it.

04:15:47 Oct 13th 08 - Lord Charley Deallus:

Yeah I am guessing DNA and cells just magically formed the complex structures that they are by chance...but w/e I don't want more stupid "You can prove this, you can prove that" bs...because this is a never ending question

04:28:53 Oct 13th 08 - Duchess Nog:

You didn't research abiogenesis yet, did you?

I'll even make it easy, here's a link to a video that has a rather decent explanation of it. For starters, of course--I encourage you to go check it out further.

05:08:42 Oct 13th 08 - Lord Charley Deallus:

I am guessing none of this is fact, but sounds like the first good thing I have heard...

07:49:44 Oct 13th 08 - Mr. Doctor Strange:

*walks in* "Oh sh*t people arguing about religion again" *runs out*

08:17:18 Oct 13th 08 - Duchess Nog:

Charley Deallus, you do realize that these are confirmed results as done by Szostak's studies, right? This isn't hypothetical, it's real.

08:35:48 Oct 13th 08 - Lord Charley Deallus:

Sorry, it is just that I have not heard of it in any of my science classes so far in college...maybe in the next year or so I may hear of it. Teachers have still be rambling on about theories of how life happened and none mention this.

08:56:34 Oct 13th 08 - Duchess Nog:

The problem is that we don't know if this is how life formed on earth, it merely forms a possible model for it to happen. What classes are you taking, what's your major?

09:10:28 Oct 13th 08 - Lord Charley Deallus:

Premedicine...taking chemistry and biology(The Diversity of Life)...then I have anatomy next year...then probably higher science levels...

09:19:50 Oct 13th 08 - Duchess Nog:

Well I imagine you'll probably be getting a lecture or class on it sometime or other, but probably nothing major. Evolution holds much more importance in the medical field than does abiogenesis.

06:32:20 Oct 16th 08 - Sir Kathandarion The Destroyer:

Mr. Ghouma

Report

6/7/2007 11:28:29 AMGAD DAM, u know we had this discussion once, that thread went completly mad with people typing thousands of words.

Anyway, since the big bang theory is proven I guess you have my ansver.

Well thats a lie.Its a theory.meaning it isnt proven.it can never be proven what created the world.it can be proven however what DID NOT create the world.i personally think religion.there are theories out there that make more sense then the big bang.Atoms collide in space every day let another universe isnt born every 97 seconds(approximately the time is takes for 1 million of them to collide).

06:36:13 Oct 16th 08 - Sir Kathandarion The Destroyer:

for those who do not believe that there are flaws in there religions ideas
*why were we created?
We were created to fill the earth and care for the animals living here...not a flaw every religious book states this.

*what created god?
It is pretty irelevant.but from what i can decipher of the bible Nothing created God.He was always there.But asleep.His awakening brough about the beginning of time.
*What about the thousands of facts supporting evolution?
......These facts all support the bible interpretations also.Evolution is though to of taken close to one million years.(from human ancestor to modern day human).In the bible it states a day to GOD is a million years to man.the earth was created in 7 days....7 OF GOD'S DAYS.and the original jewish interpretation of the word day simply meant passage of time when the sun is alive.

for those who say there is no proof in scienctific theorys
*What about all the tests they run?
Show me the one SUCCESFUL test.

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