Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Universe Creation

really? something from nothing seems pretty complex to me. whos to say how god was created? or the fact that your probability holds more validity than the probability of god just because yours is a tool of science, isnt that like saying that your probability is right because it supports you beliefs but my is wrong because it doesnt?

"really? something from nothing seems pretty complex to me. whos to say how god was created? or the fact that your probability holds more validity than the probability of god just because yours is a tool of science, isnt that like saying that your probability is right because it supports you beliefs but my is wrong because it doesnt?"

Oh a tool is more complex than an entity all powerful and all knowing? You really are a retard. Do you consider yourself more simple than a hammer? Wait nevermind don't answer that, tool.

"The strongest evidence that something like the Big Bang really happened is the Cosmic Background Radiation predicted by Cosmologist George Gamov in 1948 and discovered by Arno Penzias & Robert Wilson of Bell Labs in 1965. All those -rays described above are part of the thermal radiation present in the early Universe because it is hot. As the Universe expanded and cooled, the radiation field cooled along with it. When matter and radiation "decoupled" with the formation of atoms a million years after the Big Bang, the radiation had cooled to visible light. Although the matter distribution has become complicated with the formation of galaxies & stars since that time the light has simply continued to cool with the expansion. Gamow predicted that the Universe should be filled with this "relic radiation left over" from the Big Bang. (Gamow calculated a temperature of 15K; *beep*e & Peebles at Princeton recalculated the value in 1963, predicting a Temperature near 3K.) Using the peculiar horn-shaped antenna shown in the picture to the right, Penzias & Wilson made the first glimpses of the Cosmic Background Light quite unexpectedly. Since their discovery the evidence has become stronger and stronger that we are seeing the light from the Big Bang. Penzias & Wilson received the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1978. "

http://cassfos02.ucsd.edu/public/tutorial/BB.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang_nucleosynthesis

pretty sure those are 2 things that give some amount of evidence to the "big bang".

Hm, here's something to throw out.

There is a belief that God created reason and mathematics.

Both reason and mathematics are ethereal concepts; therefor they cannot be judged in a scientific manner and are as real as one another

God is as real as mathematics.

We've had 5000 years or so to work out math.  And we're still learning it.

We've had 5000 years to work out God.  And we're still working on it.

The idea of God is he created the universe. Before God there was absolutly nothing. The reason we have anything to theorise about is because he created it. You guys keep trying to put God into a material perspective when he far exceeds it. Even those who believe in him don't understand him. He is beyond human comprehension. God is harder (or is it equaly hard?) to comprehend than infinity. You can try, but you wont succeed.
I don't why the concept of god should bother aetheist so much. You guys should be perfectly content to let believers believe, whilst knowing (in your own minds) that you are right.
Oh let me say it again: you wont find material proof of god. So stop asking.

geuss who the sheep are ... 

(my posts get deleted, and blatantly ignoring fact is allowed? , propagandising stupidity is ok?)    

 there is nothing indicating that their is a god, it's just a manmade idea, to make people feel better about themselves and to explain things to an uneducated population, it is redundant by now ... just accept it.

"That's math.  Prove math exists without using numbers."

We found objects, multiple objects, they were assigned a number that boiled down to the meaning 1 2 3 etc. the more we had of said object the higher the "number" we had of them. If you take one away, we had one less. Thats math, numbers are just placeholders for objects.

"Not exactly.  The earliest forms of applied math were geometry.  We know geometry fairly well now.  Now we're diving into advanced chemistry, physics, etc."

We know "basic" math, and guess what, all math everywhere is because of that basic math.  Sure we find ways to shorten it, but when it comes down to it, its all just a form of that basic math.

"Sort of, but you can also say math made man.  The fact that particles drift together in a uniform fashion to form planets, how bacteria acquire mass to become uniform sizes, how all of the human composition is formed by four simple amino acids, etc."

What... math didnt make man... not in the way your saying anyway, maybe in the way that it helped us gain a better understanding of our surroundings.

"There is nothing indicating justice exists.  Justice is manmade, therefore redundant and uneducated, to make ourselves feel better.  Right?"

Justice is made by the weaker to fight the stronger, then its ingrained into society.

On CBR,

This “reason” is a fairly bold claim. But just how substantiated is it? First off, let’s take a look at some quotes from fellow scientists about the claims on the origins of the universe:

At the beginning of his book The God Particle, Nobel physicist Leon Ledermann [referring to cosmological speculations like the big bang in science books and articles] writes: “When you read or hear anything about the birth of the universe, someone is making it up.”¹

“Big bang cosmology is probably as widely believed as has been any theory of the universe in the history of Western civilization. It rests, however, on many untested, and in some cases untestable, assumptions. Indeed, big bang cosmology has become a bandwagon of thought that reflects faith as much as objective truth.”²

Now we can take a closer look at what is actually being proposed:

The Big Bang is not an unsubstantiated theoretical speculation.

The big bang is not an observable event that scientists can duplicate in the lab. It is a hypothesis about how the universe came to be. Such naturalistic man-made ideas are, in fact, speculation about past events. Because there were no eyewitnesses to the alleged big bang, it cannot be definitively substantiated. Compare that to the eyewitness record given to us in the Bible. The Creator (not simply an “eyewitness” to the events of creation, but the actual One doing the creating) has given us a written record of the beginning in the first chapters of Genesis.

Last year’s Nobel Prize was given for observations of the cosmic microwave background radiation that has been traveling for over 14 billion years before being received by NASA’s Cosmic Background Explore Satellite.

This is an amazing assumption! Since nobody knows exactly when this radiation actually started traveling, how do we know when the start date was and thus the period of time which it has been traveling? Again, we see the unnecessary insertion of exorbitant periods of time to force their “reasons” to appear plausible.

This thermal radiation bath, whose temperature is measured more accurately than any other known existing system, has a temperature that is in precise agreement with the predicted value if the Universe has been expanding for 14.3 billion years since the big bang. Moreover, the small temperature deviations observed across the sky agree exactly with what are predicted if gravity worked over the course of several billion to create all of the 400 billion observed galaxies in the universe. Moreover, observations of the primordial background radiation are in exact independent agreement with the predictions of a hot big bang that produced precisely the observed abundance of light elements, hydrogen, deuterium, helium, and lithium, at a time when the universe was 1 second old and had a temperature of 10 billion degrees.

It is peculiar that secular scientists point to Cosmic Microwave Background (CMB) radiation as being proof of the big bang when the very fact that the CMB temperature is uniform everywhere presents a tremendous problem for the big bang. There just wasn’t enough time for the exchange of radiation (i.e. light) to allow the temperature to reach equilibrium. It is interesting that they fail to mention this “little” problem in Reason Number 10, which destroys the whole foundation of the argument! Please see Light Travel Time: A Problem for the Big Bang for more on this problem.

when your standing behind your girl while she bends over? yeah i get big bangs like that too lol

"We found objects, multiple objects, they were assigned a number that boiled down to the meaning 1 2 3 etc. the more we had of said object the higher the "number" we had of them. If you take one away, we had one less. Thats math, numbers are just placeholders for objects."

Without math there is simply matter without quantity.

"We know "basic" math, and guess what, all math everywhere is because of that basic math.  Sure we find ways to shorten it, but when it comes down to it, its all just a form of that basic math. "

In essence, math boils down to four functions.  Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division.  Yet knowing these four functions won't build you an Empire State building, now will it?

"Justice is made by the weaker to fight the stronger, then its ingrained into society."

Couldn't you say the same for God, then?  God id made by the weaker to fight the strong, then is ingrained into society.  But why are you so fast to believe in Justice and not God?

Certainly they can change to be resistent to poison, but the DNA is already there to make the improvements, it just needs to be re-organized, which happens.

"are you suggesting they pulled a number out of their ass? that they would take the time to look and study it then say, hey, lets randomly say its this old. Im sure they had an educated guess as to how long it was, whether or not they are right no idea, actually money says they have it wrong"

They choose the date to fit the rest of what they believe, doing what they say bible believing scientists do, they added information to fit their "facts".

On fossils and Carbon radiation dating. There is one problem with how evolutionists do their tests, they assume that the same amount of carbon radiation was there 5000 years ago as there is now, yet this is a false idea. Carbon radiation is emitted by the sun, more rapidly recently because of global warming. This means that a fossilized lemming now will have started with more carbons then a fossilized lemming 100 years ago, yet the evolutionists get their age numbers by two ways. One, they calculate the amount of radio carbon in a fossil, and compare it to the amount in it's counterpart now. Since radio carbon decomposes at the same rate, they calculate that, with this amount of radio carbon, it is so and so years old. This is inaccurate, as it is next to impossible to tell how much radio carbon was in something to start, unless you already know.

Also, how in heck do they help evolution? They, like everything else in observable science, support a biblical account. This is why your case is folly, the more science is uncovered, the more it points to the biblical account.

Lastly, it really annoys me when people go "Science vs Religion" when it should be "Science and religion vs Evolution."

well i don't know about you

but when my sister died (i never met her, she died befor i was born)

my mother was quite upset, well my brother told me

she often told me when i was young when we die and go to heaven my sister and any other loved ones will also  be there.

i wouldn't mind if i didn't see her as i never knew her

but i would like to think my mother will meat her again.

"They choose the date to fit the rest of what they believe, doing what they say bible believing scientists do, they added information to fit their "facts"."

great so both sides are *beep*s...

"On fossils and Carbon radiation dating. There is one problem with how evolutionists do their tests, they assume that the same amount of carbon radiation was there 5000 years ago as there is now, yet this is a false idea. Carbon radiation is emitted by the sun, more rapidly recently because of global warming. This means that a fossilized lemming now will have started with more carbons then a fossilized lemming 100 years ago, yet the evolutionists get their age numbers by two ways. One, they calculate the amount of radio carbon in a fossil, and compare it to the amount in it's counterpart now. Since radio carbon decomposes at the same rate, they calculate that, with this amount of radio carbon, it is so and so years old. This is inaccurate, as it is next to impossible to tell how much radio carbon was in something to start, unless you already know."

they know this... hence if you get MANY tests done, you can generally get a good idea of when things were, is it perfectly accurate? hell no. However that doesnt mean its completely wrong. Its considered to be accurate up to 60k years ago. Which pretty much kills the idea of earth being 6k years old.

How could the universe even BE 6k years old?! thats only a few generations... hell im pretty sure we've found traces of humans older then 6k years old.

What about all the animals did they just appear from nothing to forever be slaves of man? and women were made to keep men happy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehrgarh -people that lived at 5000 bc (7k years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture#Ancient_origins -origins o*beep*riculture -around 11.5k years ago.

people existed before 6k years ago. Life existed a hell of alot longer before we ever had warm blood.

"

Lastly, it really annoys me when people go "Science vs Religion" when it should be "Science and religion vs Evolution.""

heres the funny thing... science goes against evolution too, its the nature of science to question things. Evolution wouldnt be considered right if there wasnt a ton of evidence for it and little against it. Sure evolution isnt perfectly exactly right but, what else is when its first discovered. It will just take more time before its proven beyond a doubt to anyone. Just like how the earth goes around the sun.

"Without someone assigning the math, however, math cannot exist."

yes... what are you getting at?

"Of course, there are also gods made by the strong.  Takes Ares for example."

and they are real? I mean sure they were real at the time, but not anymore.

"Feeling of all power?  Not really.  They are both human wishes that there is something greater in this world that makes pain and loss bearable."

well first off i said being... so basically its a crutch for those who need it? heres the thing, god doesnt change things, justice does. God just causes violence.

Sorry to hear about your loss Iwasfrozen.

"Evolution does not have tons of evidence....

How do they know that they were alive 7k years ago? Or 11.5k? "

Because people magically dissapear? These were whole civilizations, there are ruins of houses, pottery, bones, stoneage tools.

"Carbon Dating? Haven't we already shown the inaccuracies of how Evolutionists use that? How can tons of tests possibly make the result any better when it is fundementally flawed? Then again, the definition of insanity is "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." That's kinda funny..."

They are collecting the numbers to tell if its different... thereby getting a median result. Its not doing it for no reason they are collecting the numbers. If carbon dating was so horribly innaccurate why do we use it for dating things?

omfg... you people are still droaning on with the same arguements...bah, these discussions will never get anywhere....i argued for ages with ET last time a thread like this was around, he failed along with many believers to understand what it is like for someone who doesn't share his view point. I see athiests also doing the same, i have found it slightly ironic now that when both sides go at each others throats using the same tactics and the same arguements time and time again, that you are no better than those you oppose. The arrogance irrates me greatly, as an atheist i try to look at things as logically as i can, with reason and evidence to some conclusion, yes of course i am human and i do have moments of irrationality....which i know isn't a bad thing, life is worth it if you feel things. So i can understand faith....before anyone flames me for not understanding it, i do, i know exactly why you require faith...i just believe personnally the things we should find strength and comfort in, is not a glamourous god or diety, but in our selves and the people around us.....we all share this world, argueing over how or who made it is useless unless you are willing to listen to each other and atleast try to understand anothers viewpoint, otherwise you can just goto a local school playground a bicker there :)

Thanks Oya... Sorta got a little angry as Neratu kept failing to listen to my arguments.

Sorry bout any possible flames or personal insults I sent at you Neratu.

However Oya, your logic is flawed... *drones on with arguments against Oya's atheist position*

"It's only inaccurate because their is a flaw. This causes massive inaccuracies, but since it supports what the evolutionists believe, they will not accept facts."

So ive been searching the web about carbon dating flaws and all i can seem to realy find are websites saying in not so many words, carbon dating is flawed and the bible is right...

I found one though that brings an interesting problem up called "resevoir effect" that apparently just totally screws carbon dating unless you are looking for it... has something to do with water or something.

Since i can't seem to find any sites on here that dont seem schewed to one view or another im just gonna say screw carbon dating and look for another point.

First off... the ice age, I'm not gonna say I've read the bible anytime soon nor realy enjoyed reading it at all, but I don't remember any parts about the ice age.

Second, if humans were alive suddenly and conscious... what would happen psychologically? were adam and eve immediatly capable of speaking a language (whatever one that was), were they aware of themselves and their surroundings? Not to mention pointing out the paths humans have taken has become pretty warlike... did they have the knowledge of building houses and crafting tools then? I can only assume they slept in caves or trees or something and scavenged.

Third the dinosaur bones being relativly everywhere.

Fourth the extinction of said dinosaurs and 90%+ of all life on earth at times. Times because its happened more then once.

Hmm another interesting thing, the earth is considered to be 5.5 billion years old based on radiometric dating on meteorites and apparently the moon. From what i understand of reading it, they cant actually use the earth because of its process of making rock it sinking down and being melted then spit out again.

also why do we wear clothes... i never understood that reason from the bible.

also is eden up for debate?

hey oya, i know, i find this entertaining and it gives me a good reason to search things i normally wouldnt.

"Thanks Oya... Sorta got a little angry as Neratu kept failing to listen to my arguments.

Sorry bout any possible flames or personal insults I sent at you Neratu."

if it makes you feel better i feel the same way!

""I and my Father are one".  John 10:30

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I". John 14:28"

I can make some understanding of the others, but can someone translate what he is talking about because im confused...

""I and my Father are one".  John 10:30

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I". John 14:28"

One states they are the same being, the other states two seperate ones.

Thardin, you do not have understanding of the bible. First off, look at what you call a contradiction in Genesis! It's not a contradiction, it's just written as a newspaper account... First the bare facts, then an expansion on certain features of those accounts, written in more detail. How the heck does that contradict???

"I and my Father are one".  John 10:30

The Triune God, three and one. The father, the son, and the holy spirit are one, yet they are different entities at the same time. The Son is god in human form, the Father is God in normal form, the spirit is God, yet sent to help us and convict of sin etc... I'm not going into it, but there is no contradiction there, you just have to read different portions to fully understand it.

"Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I". John 14:28

If you read above paragraph, this is no contradiction.

"Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding." PRO 4:7

Apperently, the goal is to gain wisdom, but to be careful in getting understanding as you do this. Where is the contradiction?

"For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow." ECC 1:18

A child is happy, not caring or understanding what he sees on the news. When he is older, wiser and smarter, what he sees and understands makes him sad. Contradiction? Nope.

"For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and wil bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent." Cor. 1:19

Talking about the end-times here...

Fourth the extinction of said dinosaurs and 90%+ of all life on earth at times. Times because its happened more then once.

The facts are consistent from the flood. Almost all creatures were killed during the flood. After that it was simply a matter of humans or other circumstances finishing them off, such as the Dodo. But where do you get the multiple times? Please, I'm all agog to know.

First off... the ice age, I'm not gonna say I've read the bible anytime soon nor realy enjoyed reading it at all, but I don't remember any parts about the ice age.

No, there is no record of the ice age, although the Flood would have been able to cause it, and again it's likely to have only made the areas around the equator, where the ark likely landed, lusher. Other than that, it would have left the area around where the Tower of Babel was untouched until it receded. About that time, the scattering would occour. People would go their different directions as the ice receded.

Third the dinosaur bones being relativly everywhere.

Again, the Flood.

With the clothes, read genesis and you should get a basic understanding of why. It does say...

Radiometric dating. In the Grand Canyon, there was a volcanic eruption, sited by the local Aboriginals, about 2000 years ago. According to Radiometric dating, that eruption occured 1200 million years ago. It was also 200 million years older than the rock it was on top of, which in turn was older than the rock below it, by about 400 million years... None of this was in the error margin...

ya, but in practice it doesnt turn out that way... there have been alot of wars fought over relegion, or using relegion as a way to allow a war.

Many things are used as excuses for war, wealth, land, famine, room, religion. Often one is used as a cover for others. During the crusades, only a tiny bit was from religion, and that was only because the Pope didn't want lands to fall into muslim hands, and also wanted to stem fighting among Europeans. So he gave them a common enemy, with a "Religion to protect" Lands to gain, and wealth to steal.

First off ice age not being in the bible is pretty questionable, seeing as its pretty important. Personally I think the ice age caused the great biblical flood, and heres something interesting, lots of cultures have flood stories. They are all different but have one common theme, a flood. Now if it realy happened that the flood came first then people scattered, then the stories should be relativly the same, but they arnt.

They are all similar. Similar, but different to fit their individual mythology/beliefs. Things are easily lost if not written down, and most cultures didn't have a writing system.

Where did the water come from, where did it go?

The depths of the earth. All the ground water was pushed up, and scattered across the world, at the same time the tectonic plates were seperated and moved during the forty day period. After everything settled, the water went back into the large areas where it is now, the plates settled, and everything re-organized. There is far more to it, and it's far clearer, yet, I cannot remember everything at this point in time.

How could noah and his family build a boat large enough for all those animals, their food, and room needed for hygene?

Living beings, including humans, can live in harsh conditions. Humans can also build large structures over several ye*beep*ven with a small team.

Also, it is likely that it was primarily Juveniles on the ark, as it would be rather difficult to get a fully grown Bronchiosauros onboard....

How did he get all those animals?

God sent them... Of course, if God does not exist, it's impossible, so you won't believe that, will you?

Why, if all types of animals were on the boat are some extinct, such as the dinosaurs?

Later, the animals were slowly building back up. Usual causes for extinction, hunting, disasters, etc. It is a common belief that medieval Dragons (only a few of which are actually winged) were dinosaurs that had not yet been fully killed off, yet this is primarily conjecture at this point in time, and has little bearing on the current discussion.

How would specialized creatures survive in a climate they are not used to?

Go to a zoo, and see if the animals there can survive in a cage for a few months...

Religion is used to justify violence that would likely happen anyway, occasionally it causes it by itself, yet Religion also stops violence, often those of the same faith do not fight each other because of religion etc. Religion may cause wars, yet it also stops them.

Now, if you decided to drop your trousers in a public place, you would be extremely ashamed, would you not?.. Humans normally feel ashamed when unclothed, although I haven't made an in-depth study as to why. You'd have to ask someone who was.

"They are all similar. Similar, but different to fit their individual mythology/beliefs. Things are easily lost if not written down, and most cultures didn't have a writing system."

Then how come the bible has it written so well thousands of years after the fact, and writing wasnt exactly that hard to come by. There were writing systems thousands of years ago.

"Living beings, including humans, can live in harsh conditions. Humans can also build large structures over several ye*beep*ven with a small team."

Not all living beings can take harsh conditions, thats why zoos dont work very well.

Also, this bout would have had to be simply massive, massive beyond scale to accomodate all these animals. The problem is we dont have the technology to make a boat big enough to do that now, how the hell did we have it then?

"Also, it is likely that it was primarily Juveniles on the ark, as it would be rather difficult to get a fully grown Bronchiosauros onboard...."

Not all creatures can be taken as Juveniles and still retain their natural instincts, pack animals for example NEED others that are older to teach them how to run or hunt. If they were alone, they would die.

"Later, the animals were slowly building back up. Usual causes for extinction, hunting, disasters, etc. It is a common belief that medieval Dragons (only a few of which are actually winged) were dinosaurs that had not yet been fully killed off, yet this is primarily conjecture at this point in time, and has little bearing on the current discussion."

First, wouldnt every ecosystem be thoroughly destroyed by a giant flood?

What about the animals that died in the flood, wouldnt thier many many rotting corpses spread disease?

As to the dragon thing, there are still large lizards alive, the anaconda is a huge snake that can grow to massive sizes.

"The depths of the earth. All the ground water was pushed up, and scattered across the world, at the same time the tectonic plates were seperated and moved during the forty day period. After everything settled, the water went back into the large areas where it is now, the plates settled, and everything re-organized. There is far more to it, and it's far clearer, yet, I cannot remember everything at this point in time."

Why would this water have not been pushed up before the time of noah?

How far down? too far down and the water would boil away into steam.

Wouldn't that also cause rocks to be raining from the skies, any one of which could sink the ship?

Also are you saying the plates shifted in 40 days? From pangea into what we know today, in 40 days?

"Go to a zoo, and see if the animals there can survive in a cage for a few months..."

well first off, those cages are specialized for the animals. How does a penguin survive in the same environment a tortoise is supposed to survive in?

Also, the zoo isnt exactly a great place for animals, sure they survive, but they dont thrive.

"Religion is used to justify violence that would likely happen anyway, occasionally it causes it by itself, yet Religion also stops violence, often those of the same faith do not fight each other because of religion etc. Religion may cause wars, yet it also stops them."

Well the argument of same relegion stoping violence is not true... they are still gonna fight eachother. Just they call eachother heretics or whatever to justify it.

"Now, if you decided to drop your trousers in a public place, you would be extremely ashamed, would you not?.. Humans normally feel ashamed when unclothed, although I haven't made an in-depth study as to why. You'd have to ask someone who was."

I would only because ive been told to be, but hey as a kid, not a bit. Humans do not normaly feel ashamed unclothed, its natural for us to be naked. Clothes are only used for warmth or to escape the sun, eventually they became so common that everyone wore them.

In cases where feral children have been found guess what, they are naked, and I don't think they were ashamed at all.

I'm a Christian, and I know I'll probably get flamed or something, but I don't care.

I just want to put a nice little ending to this whole discussion.

NEVER speak for an entire religion when you aren't educated in both sides of the discussion. (In this case, be educated in your own religion, and the Big Bang and Evolution Theories, so on and so forth.)


NOBODY will ever know how the universe began. All we can do his hypothesize, theorize, experiment and believe. (And in saying this, I mean during your lifetime, you may have other beliefs.)


A LOT of all your arguments suck... on both sides of this discussion, which is why I stated that you should be educated. I'm kind of bummed that I missed out on this whole thing, because I've got some answers to some of your argumentative questions. But not all the answers, of course. But neither do you.


DO NOT shove your religion down someone's throat. You can tell people your beliefs, and explain to them why you believe it all, but don't expect them to believe it too. And do it all calmly and rationally. I have many friends who do not believe in God, but they respect me and treat me like any of their friends, because I respect them and their beliefs, even if it hurts me to see them act the way they do.


JUST because you aren't a Christian, or religious in any way, doesn't give you an excuse to hate everyone who is, or insult them. It is possible to live happily and harmoniously with people who do and do not believe in God. Fighting over the creation of the universe CAN be viewed as fighting over which flavor of cheese is the best, though it seems important, it really isn't, because you can live your everyday life just the same, even if it pisses you off that you friend likes Swiss better than sharp Cheddar. (Sorry if you don't understand that connection, but seriously, everyone believes what they believe, and if they're convicted enough, they won't back away from it.)


PEOPLE are stubborn, that is totally NATURAL. It's very hard to find people who aren't. I would never turn my eyes from God, or start worshipping Buddha, and I'm sure most atheists won't ever start believing that there is a god worth worshipping. So don't make it your life goal to convince one person that the world was made by a Flying Spaghetti Monster, when their whole life has been based on the belief that the world was created by the bottle of water in the fridge.


And just stop insulting each other, it doesn't feel good.

Oh, and you'll never come to a conclusion on this discussion, so please, stop discussing.

THE END

P.S.- maybe, don't write a response to this here, or this discussion will last forever, maybe message me if you have something you have to say to me or insult me about. I can take it for a while.

I know you know everything I said, but I find it a waste of time to argue about it.

I'm not saying that you, Neratu, had anything to do with the insulting, but on previous pages there was loads of Christian-hating and Atheist-hating.

But if you really really want to continue this conversation, I would even join in on it, I just figured that it would be better for everyone if we just forgave eachother and forgot about it all.

But I hardly ever know what is best for everyone.

Verteccio, this is an internet discussion it is bound to get dirty. And we should always question and discuss, I dont see why we dotn have the right to do so just because we dont have PHDs, if that was the case our society would be very elitist.

You fools are all doomed! Doomed! The spaghetti monster will consume you all! :P