| Bragging Rights. |
production & resources| name | prod. | pop. | empl. | morale | tax | gold | food | stone | tree | land | defence |
| soldados |
100% |
69% |
100% |
100% |
+9,316 |
+0 |
-9,850
|
+0 |
+0 |
14,301 |
30,083 men
|
| jumkin |
100% |
71% |
100% |
100% |
+10,719 |
+365 |
-15,376
|
+122 |
+0 |
14,400 |
50,784 men
& 945 wall
|
| fire farms |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+19,750 |
+0 |
+55,892
|
+0 |
+0 |
4,741 |
nothing
|
| clearence |
100% |
31% |
100% |
100% |
+7,686 |
+0 |
-1,922
|
+0 |
+0 |
6,001 |
one army
|
| gravity |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+106,626 |
+238,918 |
-26,669
|
+170,656 |
+0 |
25,600 |
49 men
|
| cash |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+106,030 |
+237,496 |
-26,512
|
+169,640 |
+0 |
25,448 |
nothing
|
| banana split |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+14,450 |
+32,357 |
-3,612
|
+23,112 |
+0 |
3,468 |
nothing
|
| deep connection |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+26,650 |
+59,730 |
-6,662
|
+42,664 |
+0 |
6,400 |
nothing
& 630 wall
|
| smeltediglen |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+45,100 |
+89,824 |
-11,275
|
+64,160 |
+0 |
10,824 |
nothing
& 812 wall
|
| singularity |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+80,950 |
+50,714 |
-20,238
|
+36,224 |
+55,973 |
19,428 |
one army
|
| hana |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+50,000 |
+112,000 |
-12,500
|
+80,000 |
+0 |
12,016 |
nothing
& 866 wall
|
| that was quick |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+115,000 |
+213,920 |
+11,290
|
+152,800 |
+7,800 |
27,601 |
nothing
& 6 wall
|
| bout time |
75% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+130,000 |
+252,706 |
+5,615
|
+180,504 |
+3,780 |
40,000 |
nothing
& 1575 wall
|
| trelleborg |
100% |
16% |
100% |
100% |
+18,495 |
+0 |
-4,624
|
+0 |
+0 |
27,708 |
one army
& 1053 wall
|
| oxford |
81% |
22% |
100% |
100% |
+12,149 |
+0 |
+5,338
|
+0 |
+0 |
7,918 |
one army
& 701 wall
|
| ancient shrine |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+12,310 |
+8,198 |
+4,298
|
+2,733 |
+0 |
2,955 |
nothing
|
| elverish |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+47,255 |
+105,750 |
-11,819
|
+75,536 |
+0 |
11,342 |
nothing
& 218 wall
|
| jibberish |
100% |
100% |
73% |
100% |
+140,950 |
+315,717 |
-47,975
|
+225,512 |
+0 |
35,866 |
nothing
& 877 wall
|
| dul |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+30,000 |
+66,920 |
-7,500
|
+47,800 |
+0 |
7,200 |
nothing
|
| magics |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+22,500 |
+0 |
+63,675
|
+0 |
+0 |
5,401 |
nothing
& 3 wall
|
| fiiiiiiiiiiiire |
100% |
31% |
100% |
100% |
+7,457 |
+0 |
-1,864
|
+0 |
+0 |
5,950 |
nothing
|
| grana |
82% |
83% |
100% |
100% |
+137,874 |
+393,561 |
-34,468
|
+218,645 |
+0 |
39,997 |
nothing
|
| event horizon |
100% |
33% |
100% |
100% |
+261 |
+0 |
-2,043
|
+0 |
+0 |
6,001 |
7,912 men + one army
& 610 wall
|
| gold infected |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+40,800 |
+91,392 |
-10,200
|
+65,280 |
+0 |
9,793 |
nothing
|
| mine too |
53% |
50% |
100% |
100% |
+32,614 |
+70,181 |
-8,154
|
+50,130 |
+0 |
16,418 |
nothing
& 984 wall
|
| cherry hill |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+25,995 |
+58,150 |
-6,500
|
+41,536 |
+0 |
6,239 |
nothing
& 400 wall
|
| set |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+10,050 |
+22,400 |
-2,512
|
+16,000 |
+0 |
2,412 |
nothing
|
| neutron burst |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+53,875 |
+120,669 |
-13,469
|
+86,192 |
+0 |
12,930 |
nothing
|
| saint amos |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+15,445 |
+0 |
+21,708
|
+0 |
+0 |
3,707 |
nothing
& 473 wall
|
| nikapolis |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+137,175 |
+395,064 |
-34,294
|
+219,480 |
+0 |
32,923 |
nothing
|
| megaro |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+59,820 |
+172,267 |
-14,956
|
+95,704 |
+0 |
14,357 |
nothing
& 233 wall
|
| barricade |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+60,000 |
+0 |
-15,000
|
+0 |
+0 |
14,400 |
nothing
& 884 wall
|
| the crimson tid |
76% |
33% |
100% |
100% |
+8,576 |
+0 |
-2,450
|
+0 |
+0 |
7,216 |
1,224 men
& 650 wall
|
| boo |
97% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+42,850 |
+96,277 |
-10,712
|
+68,769 |
+0 |
10,576 |
nothing
|
| luca |
100% |
100% |
78% |
100% |
+25,065 |
+40,104 |
-8,062
|
+24,062 |
+0 |
6,303 |
nothing
|
| yupp thats all |
100% |
28% |
100% |
100% |
+8,590 |
+0 |
-2,148
|
+0 |
+0 |
5,834 |
one army
|
| ithilien |
100% |
39% |
4% |
100% |
+755 |
+11 |
-4,994
|
+6 |
+0 |
2,212 |
nothing
& 150 wall
|
| graywaste |
100% |
100% |
94% |
100% |
+20,025 |
+38,136 |
-5,312
|
+27,240 |
+30 |
4,855 |
nothing
& 549 wall
|
| stockpile |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+12,925 |
+0 |
-3,231
|
+0 |
+0 |
6,731 |
one army
|
| diddlydoooooo |
53% |
59% |
100% |
100% |
+49,596 |
+109,858 |
-12,399
|
+47,082 |
+0 |
21,864 |
nothing
|
| tzgulled |
100% |
100% |
0% |
90% |
+0 |
+0 |
+0
|
+0 |
+0 |
4,000 |
nothing
& 959 wall
|
| megasnikos |
100% |
31% |
100% |
100% |
+7,698 |
+0 |
-1,924
|
+0 |
+0 |
6,001 |
one army
& 17 wall
|
| advertise here |
64% |
65% |
100% |
100% |
+59,952 |
+127,633 |
-10,398
|
+91,167 |
+0 |
22,124 |
20 men
|
| grandmoc |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+108,790 |
+176,949 |
+18,369
|
+126,392 |
+0 |
26,110 |
nothing
& 1236 wall
|
| comote |
49% |
50% |
100% |
100% |
+29,979 |
+0 |
+66,593
|
+0 |
+0 |
14,400 |
nothing
|
| foodfarmers |
100% |
100% |
96% |
100% |
+14,705 |
+0 |
+41,457
|
+0 |
+0 |
3,552 |
nothing
& 44 wall
|
| lorelisi |
71% |
72% |
100% |
100% |
+145,904 |
+323,996 |
-36,232
|
+231,426 |
+0 |
48,940 |
nothing
|
| dwarf city |
100% |
100% |
19% |
100% |
+13,310 |
+23,011 |
-17,350
|
+15,341 |
+0 |
5,438 |
nothing
& 1038 wall
|
| forest fields |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+37,500 |
+0 |
+106,125
|
+0 |
+0 |
9,001 |
nothing
|
| unleashed |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+85,005 |
+190,400 |
-21,256
|
+136,000 |
+0 |
20,402 |
nothing
& 331 wall
|
| all guns blazin |
100% |
96% |
100% |
100% |
+3,796 |
+0 |
-6,914
|
+0 |
+0 |
6,136 |
23,861 men
|
| big bang |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+1,425 |
+0 |
-356
|
+0 |
+0 |
4,076 |
nothing
|
| fun time |
100% |
100% |
99% |
100% |
+59,940 |
+126,291 |
-9,770
|
+90,208 |
+990 |
14,400 |
nothing
|
| colloseum |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+38,800 |
+86,901 |
-9,700
|
+62,072 |
+0 |
9,312 |
one army
|
| secure area |
98% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+102,725 |
+0 |
+177,684
|
+0 |
+44,159 |
25,095 |
nothing
|
| ella |
100% |
25% |
100% |
100% |
+10,340 |
+0 |
-2,585
|
+0 |
+0 |
9,957 |
one army
|
| dasut |
100% |
100% |
11% |
100% |
+5,505 |
+0 |
+4,440
|
+0 |
+0 |
3,101 |
nothing
& 151 wall |
|
| merciless scyth |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+48,000 |
+0 |
-12,000
|
+0 |
+0 |
11,920 |
nothing
& 757 wall
|
| howells |
21% |
16% |
100% |
100% |
+17,995 |
+18,816 |
+2,807
|
+13,440 |
+5,670 |
25,566 |
one army
|
| mlow |
100% |
100% |
0% |
100% |
+5 |
+0 |
-638
|
+0 |
+0 |
103 |
nothing
|
| mion |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+72,105 |
+207,648 |
-18,031
|
+115,360 |
+0 |
17,306 |
nothing
|
| border |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+67,300 |
+150,752 |
-16,825
|
+107,680 |
+0 |
16,153 |
nothing
|
| pulsar |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+69,749 |
+156,229 |
-17,438
|
+111,592 |
+0 |
16,740 |
one man
|
| darktree |
100% |
100% |
95% |
100% |
+55,420 |
+0 |
-14,631
|
+0 |
+42,276 |
13,425 |
nothing
|
| hammer time |
99% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+26,175 |
+29,439 |
+20,724
|
+12,617 |
+2,649 |
6,400 |
nothing
& 205 wall
|
| shion |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+62,630 |
+180,360 |
-15,662
|
+100,200 |
+0 |
15,032 |
nothing
|
| megatrofi |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+45,100 |
+0 |
+127,618
|
+0 |
+0 |
10,824 |
nothing
& 50 wall
|
| megapolis |
100% |
100% |
91% |
100% |
+60,755 |
+174,960 |
-16,638
|
+97,200 |
+0 |
14,813 |
nothing
|
| guilty spark |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+28,090 |
+62,910 |
-7,025
|
+44,936 |
+0 |
6,742 |
nothing
& 714 wall
|
| megakill |
99% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+59,625 |
+171,272 |
-14,906
|
+95,151 |
+0 |
14,400 |
nothing
& 50 wall
|
| mega end |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+17,605 |
+0 |
-4,406
|
+0 |
+0 |
4,226 |
nothing
& 636 wall
|
| swoop |
100% |
100% |
81% |
100% |
+102,645 |
+294,883 |
-31,351
|
+163,824 |
+0 |
25,600 |
nothing
& 1260 wall
|
| badminton |
99% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+25,800 |
+41,176 |
-6,450
|
+24,706 |
+0 |
6,232 |
nothing
|
| megarestart |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+129,860 |
+373,982 |
-32,469
|
+207,768 |
+0 |
31,167 |
nothing
& 431 wall
|
| satoko |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+16,165 |
+46,541 |
-4,044
|
+25,856 |
+0 |
3,880 |
nothing
|
| combat food |
100% |
100% |
14% |
100% |
+765 |
+0 |
+84
|
+0 |
+0 |
378 |
nothing
& 10 wall
|
| does bum look b |
42% |
34% |
100% |
100% |
+19,682 |
+7,147 |
+13,190
|
+1,787 |
+0 |
13,342 |
one army
|
| katsus palace |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+25,000 |
+28,800 |
-6,250
|
+7,200 |
+0 |
8,500 |
nothing
& 394 wall
|
| hanyu |
100% |
100% |
98% |
100% |
+77,065 |
+221,933 |
-19,656
|
+123,296 |
+0 |
18,558 |
nothing
|
| nohelpatall |
100% |
100% |
99% |
100% |
+15,620 |
+34,989 |
-3,962
|
+24,992 |
+0 |
3,758 |
nothing
|
| megahelp |
100% |
43% |
100% |
100% |
+4,338 |
+0 |
-1,084
|
+0 |
+0 |
2,402 |
one army
& 230 wall
|
| janet |
100% |
31% |
100% |
100% |
+7,691 |
+0 |
-1,923
|
+0 |
+0 |
6,151 |
one army
& 659 wall
|
| bling ii |
99% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+58,450 |
+130,284 |
-14,612
|
+93,060 |
+0 |
14,089 |
nothing
& 7 wall
|
| golden showers |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+47,325 |
+85,792 |
+11,252
|
+61,280 |
+0 |
11,386 |
nothing
& 300 wall
|
| foodsss |
100% |
100% |
80% |
100% |
+10,635 |
+0 |
+23,469
|
+0 |
+0 |
2,658 |
nothing
|
| like farm |
100% |
100% |
85% |
100% |
+16,410 |
+0 |
+45,727
|
+0 |
+0 |
4,050 |
nothing
|
| roscoe |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+42,495 |
+75,040 |
+6,995
|
+53,600 |
+0 |
10,199 |
nothing
& 850 wall
|
| pyrofire |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+5,610 |
+12,566 |
-1,406
|
+8,976 |
+0 |
1,347 |
nothing
|
| borothan |
100% |
100% |
99% |
100% |
+87,005 |
+194,880 |
-21,875
|
+139,200 |
+0 |
20,901 |
nothing
& 1 wall
|
| megastak |
100% |
100% |
60% |
100% |
+22,500 |
+35,992 |
-9,419
|
+28,794 |
+0 |
6,007 |
nothing
& 60 wall
|
| bahh |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+25,000 |
+28,000 |
+12,650
|
+5,600 |
+0 |
6,001 |
nothing
|
| wolfenstien blo |
100% |
100% |
63% |
100% |
+26,675 |
+0 |
-10,625
|
+0 |
+0 |
7,035 |
nothing
& 901 wall
|
| irony |
100% |
100% |
93% |
100% |
+127,505 |
+280,000 |
-34,375
|
+200,000 |
+0 |
31,001 |
nothing
|
| northest |
100% |
100% |
99% |
100% |
+30,910 |
+81,806 |
-7,838
|
+45,448 |
+0 |
7,436 |
nothing
|
| bob dead |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+1,500 |
+0 |
+2,565
|
+0 |
+0 |
361 |
nothing
|
| treewood |
100% |
100% |
52% |
100% |
+1,855 |
+0 |
-894
|
+0 |
+1,776 |
514 |
nothing
|
| craigs bum |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+1,250 |
+960 |
-312
|
+320 |
+0 |
401 |
nothing
|
| noway |
100% |
80% |
8% |
100% |
+7,535 |
+0 |
-24,578
|
+0 |
+0 |
6,400 |
nothing
& 630 wall
|
| orins |
67% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+791 |
+1,072 |
-82
|
+643 |
+0 |
301 |
459 men
|
| mountain stone |
100% |
100% |
91% |
100% |
+5,480 |
+8,760 |
-1,500
|
+5,256 |
+0 |
1,336 |
nothing
|
| stoped |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+34,995 |
+0 |
-8,750
|
+0 |
+0 |
8,399 |
nothing
& 1260 wall
|
| fluffy |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+53,580 |
+119,840 |
-13,438
|
+85,600 |
+0 |
12,866 |
nothing
|
| pyro |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+1,000 |
+0 |
-250
|
+0 |
+0 |
240 |
nothing
|
| fluffyii |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+19,000 |
+48,640 |
-4,750
|
+30,400 |
+0 |
4,561 |
nothing
|
| yummies |
100% |
100% |
100% |
100% |
+16,750 |
+0 |
+33,332
|
+0 |
+0 |
4,021 |
nothing
|
| newvz |
100% |
5% |
5% |
100% |
+370 |
+818 |
-1,888
|
+584 |
+0 |
6,536 |
nothing
|
| mibne |
100% |
100% |
46% |
100% |
+28,155 |
+63,056 |
-15,281
|
+45,040 |
+0 |
8,076 |
nothing
|
| nota mine |
100% |
11% |
100% |
43% |
+2,437 |
+0 |
-686
|
+0 |
+0 |
6,000 |
307 men
|
| northern refuge |
100% |
100% |
76% |
100% |
+13,255 |
+24,960 |
-4,032
|
+8,320 |
+0 |
3,351 |
nothing
|
| fishnchips |
100% |
27% |
0% |
43% |
+0 |
+0 |
-8
|
+0 |
+0 |
5 |
nothing
|
| undefined mines |
100% |
73% |
39% |
100% |
+2,485 |
+4,771 |
-1,592
|
+2,386 |
+0 |
845 |
nothing
|
| lotsofgold |
100% |
0% |
0% |
100% |
+0 |
+0 |
+0
|
+0 |
+0 |
1,298 |
nothing
|
| retirement home |
63% |
42% |
100% |
100% |
+9,318 |
+13,144 |
-3,376
|
+2,629 |
+0 |
8,637 |
4,185 men
|
| rocking chair |
29% |
42% |
100% |
37% |
+1,722 |
+1,535 |
-359
|
+512 |
+9 |
1,322 |
one army
|
|
total: |
+12,099,860 |
-60,205
|
+5,079,448 |
+165,112 |
1,262,579 |
|
|
army upkeep:
| -3,681,800 |
|
building upkeep:
| -1,012,670 |
|
total income:
|
+7,405,390 | Total troop count: 1,148,912| ghosts |
 |
ready: |
860049 |
| injured: |
0 |
in city:
|
0
|
| archers |
 |
ready: |
20 |
| injured: |
0 |
in city:
|
0
|
| riders |
 |
ready: |
0 |
| injured: |
0 |
in city:
|
0
|
| spellweavers |
 |
ready: |
63641
|
| injured: |
0 |
in city:
|
0
|
| archmages |
 |
ready: |
225202 |
| injured: |
0 |
|
Science
You have 1168262907 gold, 68486837 stone, 26491784 tree and 25096737 food.
Each science level will give a 10% bonus.
Military Science
Level 7
Currently using: Magic weapons and mithril armor
that gives +70% defensive and offensive power.
Upgrading costs 2458161000 gold, 245816100 stone and 245816100 tree.
|
Farming
Level 4
Upgrading costs 30051000 gold and 3005100 food.
|
Mining
Level 6
Upgrading costs 462940500 gold and 46294050 stone.
|
Forestry
Level 2
Upgrading costs 9145800 gold and 914580 tree.
|
Medicine
Level 5
Upgrading costs 87753600 gold.
|
Magic Level
Level 9
Upgrading costs 10529340750 gold, 935941400 stone, 935941400 tree and 935941400 food.
|
I think I earned bragging rights... whatcha say?
|
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despite the fact the you took all those cities and had the whole era to build up your own you only had 7 mil income? you suck ;p
jk
|
Elf. not dwarf. no cavemasters. lower mining.
look at the upkeep too heh... 1.2 million troops is a *beep* to upkeep
|
Then don't train freaking ghosts maybe... whorer.
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Lol magic lvl 9 you disgust me, no true elf would stop before 10!!!
|
I was needed on the front line to fight, I had to stop training magic a little shy of 10...
and I only trained ghosts AFTER we killed preds, to get HoH ranking... ;-)
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Multi! Whorer! Multi whorer!
Lol, anyway... once you get that on Fant, then you'll have bragging rights. Until then that means nothing.
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Lol bragging with your 1.1 million troops 860k of which are ghosts, talk about a low showing, I had close to 800k advents at the end of the era with 1/4th the income you had.
This thread is more like "Hall of Shame"
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Oh damn O_O None of my cities are on there >_> I bet you burnt them you bastard =(
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thats what your get for rainbowing ;p
btw, I bet no one seen my hidden message in my last post :D
|
|
basch forget his firelord novas was 3 pages long and was only 11 mill lol
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thats actually rather embarassing...........600k ghosts? are u kidding?!?!?!
i had a third those cities, with a higher income, and a higher upkeep. my upkeep was around 5 million at the end.
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Ya the income isnt that great. Our member Jayme started late in the era and got that maybe more and she only had about 5-8 cities
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wtf only 1mill troops? i had over that last era and the era was 2 weeks shorter i believe.
come brag when you can whore :)
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Ez let the kids have their fun... ;)
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lol but he is right grumpy :P u cant brag about somthing u didnt do on fantasia period.
and having so manny city's and only 12mill income is a laugh and having 60 MU's in a 1,1 mill army.... achem!..achem...plain stupid
and training 800k ghost's thats just stupid and proves u only did that to gain points
next time u brag whit a army show me at least the dobble amount of archmages on fantasia than you might have a litle braging right
and to be fair the only one that may brag is Zeta for making this game
|
Mr. Justin
Report
8/30/2008 2:55:30 AMYa
the income isnt that great. Our member Jayme started late in the era
and got that maybe more and she only had about 5-8 cities
obvious farmer :P
|
Mr. Silver Surfer
Report
8/28/2008 10:44:18 PM |
I was needed on the front line to fight, I had to stop training magic a little shy of 10...
and I only trained ghosts AFTER we killed preds, to get HoH ranking... ;-) | ....no comments, ...
|
Shut up already U fags!!!
He did fine I think ... sure kicked my ass all over :p
|
|
Knowing Trog, he did that on purpose....
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another multi nublet.............just what this game needs...:(
|
nobody cares bout bragging this isnt a wonderful game is it there's like only 400 people on this game and bout 50+ of em r multis and like look how many peps there r in the world with computors this game is seriosly unpopulated so u see my point nobody is gonna reily be on to brag 2
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SHUT UP!
--
225k Archmages isnt bad, but its nothing 'Over Impressive'
|
Samual this game doesnt have that mutch players coz VU is to hard to play for most casual players whitout anny friends to teatch them.
i have played so manny Mass multiplayer online browser based games and didnt find anny that are better than VU but most have more players.
VU is also a advanced game. mainly for players that are searching for more than a simple game to play.
|
ive never found a game as good as VU
not even runescape is close
|
|
so gtfo ! if u saw a better one :D if i wasnt playing vu then i wouldnt need PC :DD my pc is only for vu :)
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sorry, I dont know how to gtfo :(
|
Crazy Xuaron
Report
9/1/2008 12:48:00 AM |
Samual this game doesnt have that mutch players coz VU is to hard to play for most casual players whitout anny friends to teatch them.
i have played so manny Mass multiplayer online browser based games and didnt find anny that are better than VU but most have more players.
VU is also a advanced game. mainly for players that are searching for more than a simple game to play.
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yer but my point is is that there are like so many peps out there lookin for a game possiable like this and they do not know about this game so this game is really unpopulated due to the fact that as i said there are only like 400 guys/ladys in this game and also as i said 50+ of em r multi's
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Samual, if the low numbers of players is the reason that gravity won on Mant, then why arent you winning on any world? it sounds like you think it is really easy.
| 151. |
Mr. Samual |
|
Troll |
424 | Its much harder than doing this
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