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Stable and Effective Goverment
20:05:23 Apr 18th 10 - Sir Deldrath of Hannador:

Webpage for this Guide:

Government- the Dos and Don'ts

**Note: This guide will come in a few installments. This is the first of them and there will *hopefully* be several more. In later installments CORRECTIONS will be labeled at the top to make it easier for you to read and understand the writing**

        Over the entirety of the internet, there are dozens of games alike and apart from VU that require the concept of a functioning government. In this guide, I will present to you every aspect of government and the systems of it that does and does not work in VU.

        First off, we will focus on the forms of government available to us. Traditionally, there are two classes of government- Autocracies and Democracies. An Autocracy has a single person in complete power. There are no vices or assistant-leaders. Another term for an Autocracy is a Dictatorship (although the two do differ, so DON'T say they are the same). On the other side of the spectrum is a Democracy. Democracies allow EVERYONE to vote on EVERYTHING. In all of recorded history, there has never been a pure Democracy.

        Of those two classes, there are many various 'under-classes'. The main variation of Democracy we all know is called a Republic. In a Republic, EVERYONE elects leaders who then vote on EVERYTHING. It follows the concept of Representation and allows for faster decision making than in a Democracy, but less accurate decisions than in a Democracy. The main variation of Autocracy we see is called a Monarchy. In a Monarchy, the King, a patriarchal character, is the single leader of the Kingdom, his realm. The King also has his wife, the Queen, who helps him, and a small class of advisors and assistants, along with his loyal Lords and Dukes who rule over lands for him. When the king dies, his oldest son, the Prince, is named King. In that way, the power over the land lasts in a single family for years and years.

        In a way, Monarchy is related to its Ancestor (and the government we will talk the most about here), Feudalism. Feudalism is a system in which The King and the Queen rule over a class of under-rulers called Dukes. The Dukes then rule over the Lords and Barons, who in turn rule over the Vassals who in turn rule over their own vassals, the people. These Feudal kingdoms are made up of independent plots of land called Fiefdoms. Each Duke owns a province, and of that province, each Lord owns a Fiefdom. The vassals own parts of the Fiefdom, essentially their own small Fief. Those Vassals have slave-like underlings called 'Serfs', essentially the common-folk. The Serfs work on the fields in near bondage and do most of the work while the Vassal relaxes in his Manor, the Lord in his Keep, the Duke in his Castle, and the King in his Palace.

So, how does all this relate to VU?

In VU, when you create a Kingdom, you are named King. You promote a person or four to be your assistants- the Viceroys, essentially the Lords of the Kingdom. The King is the mouth of the Kingdom, and the Viceroys are often the eyes, always advising the King and often making decisions for the Kingdom. Under the Viceroys are the Vassals- the member states, if you will, of the Kingdom. Each Vassal (player) holds his own Fiefdom and his own people (peasants and soldiers) and is in control of them. However, the King or the Viceroys (Lords) may call upon the Fiefdoms of the kingdom to supply him with troops or do things for the Kingdom.

The main difference between a Monarchy and the Feudal System is that you don't have to have your son be king (unless the era ends and you still want to be King the next era), you can pass it on to one of the Viceroys to take up the call to lead the Kingdom.

Part II: Creating an Effective Feudal System with Minimal Work

When aiming to rule a realm, you will need to take the effort to make everything work BEFORE the reign of terror begins. First off, assign your Vassals to defensive/offensive roles. Once they have those positions, the Vassals should be assigned representatives within the government who oversee their work- those representatives are the Lords of your Kingdom- the Viceroys. Assign your Lords as Generals. They will command Fronts eventually when the fighting begins. Be sure to listen to your Lords though, for they will give good advice (especially if they have played a while). It is always important (when picking Lords) to do background checks on those people. Go back and look up their character and ancestors- Ask them to give a list of their old KDs and any accomplishments they may have made in their time playing. Be sure to pick a good group to be your assistants.

Now that the Vassals are mobilizing for Defense by building up blockers on the fronts and such, be sure they all are well versed in game terms and mechanics... perhaps post a link to game guides in the forums or send out a mass-message asking if anyone is newer and needs a few pointers about their race. If you have a vet in your KD who is willing to give out tips and pointers, perhaps ask them to either post a 'Tip of the Day' in the forums or be the Kingdom Mentor who will help out players with any questions they have.

It is now time to make your Code of Laws. A Code of Laws is a document which explains the requirements that YOU (the king) have of your PEOPLE (all your members). It could be basic forum rules like 'No bad words in the alliance forums please', or it could be an entire Constitution (see an example for another game I did here... please note it is for an 'alliance', essentially the equivalent of a KD in that game. Also, the mentioned 'Islands' are the equivalent of a Lord's Fiefdom, a.k.a. an area controlled by a Vassal, in that case called a Senator.). Your Code of Laws should be tailored to your Kingdom. Make sure you explain your laws completely so no one has trouble understanding their meanings and make sure they only have one meaning- your meaning.

Now that you have a code of laws, a few players working on blockers, and your Lords overseeing the preparation of defenses, it is time to venture into the world of Diplomacy.

Part III: Diplomacy I and Good Faith Agreements

Before I say anything further, I would like to say that when dealing with other kingdoms, it is key to treat them respectfully and truthfully (unless you want to get into Vile Diplomacy, which I will not teach or speak of further here... view the tutorial on it). The key to any good diplomatic agreement is mutual faith in the others' ability to fulfill their half.

In Diplomacy there are a few main agreements you will come upon (from 'highest' to 'lowest'):

MPP (Mutual Protection Pact, also called an Alliance, a Mutual Assistance Pact (MAP), or a Defense Treaty)- A treaty that establishes that the two member Kingdoms are to NEVER attack each other (unless the pact is broken), and are to work alongside each other to achieve their goals. This Pact can be established for a time-frame (e.g. Whole Era, 1 week minimum, etc.) and a end-term agreement (e.g. when pact is ended, a 72-hour Cease-Fire is in state). Required in this pact is:
  • How to deal with mistaken attacks.
  • How to deal with another like treaty with the enemy of one side.
  • End-Term Agreement.
NAP (Non-Agression-Pact, also known as a No-Conflict-Pact and a Permanent Peace Treaty)- A treaty that makes the two member kingdoms NEVER attack each other, however, they are NOT required to help the other towards their goals... simply not to attack the other. This pact can be established for a set time-frame (whole era, 1 week, etc.) and can have a set end-term agreement (what happens when the deal is canceled, if allowed). This treaty type requires all the parts of the MMP as shown above.

CF (Cease-Fire, also known as a Temporary Peace Treaty)- A short term (1 tick to a week) treaty that temporarily stops two sides from a conflict. Usually put in place to give time for negotiations during a war or time for the sides to regroup and meet for discussion. Cease Fires cannot be overruled by anything, only by the decided end-time.

Neutral (Also known as No Agreements or No Relations)- A state in which two sides do not have any agreements and are, by default, at a state of peace. There are no official 'Neutral' agreement treaties- just a basic agreement not to fight.

Hostile (also known as Dangerous)- A state in which two neutral sides are visibly preparing to declare war or fight each other, but no war declaration has been given.

War (no other known terms)- A state in which two or more sides are openly attacking each other. May be created by a Declaration of War and may be removed by a Cease Fire.

~End of Part 1~

Part 2 will be written up later... it will include:
-Diplomacy Part II
-Upkeep of the System
-Strategy and Defenses

Then additional parts will be written as needed.

04:12:03 Apr 20th 10 - Sir Deldrath of Hannador:


Part 2a


Part IV: Diplomacy II and Diplomatic Etiquette

The person who creates diplomatic agreements is called the Diplomat. The process they enact is called conducting diplomacy (in other word, a Diplomat conducts a diplomatic discussion with another diplomat). The Diplomat is often part of a group called the Diplomate (made-up by me), or the Embassy. The Diplomate is the part of the regime that manages agreements, makes sure members know about the agreements, and oversees the enactment of punishments and requirements of diplomatic agreements.

Usually in VU, the Diplomate consists of the King and perhaps a single Viceroy charged with the position of the Diplomat. It is important to list your Diplomatic Officers (a.k.a. the members of the Diplomate) in your alliance profile so other alliances know how to contact you to make agreements.

Now, when either writing a diplomatic agreement or responding to one, something called 'Diplomatic Etiquette' (will be later mentioned as DE) comes into play. DE is a set of unwritten laws that explain what parts should be included in an agreement and what words should be written.

For example, a diplomat not using DE would write:

'Hey man, what's up! Can we like have a MPP with you guys for a while? We just don't think we are very safe right now.'

Most good diplomats would probably turn that proposal away or respond with a full document. Here is an example of a diplomat using a GOOD amount of DE, but not too much (this isn't the UN, you don't need to write a document of law or anything):

Dear Diplomat and Council of [insert_KD_name_here],

Recently, our KD has felt that, to secure our borders and resources, we should enact a Mutual-Protection-Pact (MPP) between our two kingdoms to enable the sharing of lands and the protection of what we hold to be landmarks to our goals. This pact will contain the following points that should be upheld and respected at all times:
  1. Under no circumstances shall a player of either side attack, siege, cast attack magic upon, or directly or indirectly harm a player of the other.
  2. Additionally, no player shall blackmail, threaten, or assist in the harm of a player of the other side.
  3. Neither side shall ask the other to enter a conflict with them without providing information on the conflict's sides and objectives.
  4. Both sides are required to come to the mutual aid of the other if a written request is received from any diplomatic officer requesting the aid.
  5. Both sides must open blockers for the other, or at least have a negotiation over the opening of the blockers.
  6. This document cannot be proven null-and-void by any other and is to last until the end of the era and is to forcibly instate the allegiances of both sides to be bound together.
May this document be signed and bound to the fates of each KD,
-Samulis, King of [insert_your_KD_name_here]

As you can see, the document above is much more powerful, well outlined, and proves as a document that shows that the writer is... educated. It fulfills all the requirements I suggest in 'Diplomacy I and Good Faith Agreements' (Part 1) and does so in a way that is suiting to the situation. This diplomat has a good chance of getting that MPP, if his KD is found suitable for the other KD.

Here is an example of when DE goes too far and well, it enters the realm of Role-Playing (example from game 'Grepolis'. Conversion factors: Alliance = KD, Member State = Player, God Powers = Magic, ):

Standard Non-Aggression-Pact Terms

1 Instigation and End Agreement

1.1 Instigation Policy

Once the two parties have agreed upon these terms and made all amendments required, the acceptance process of each party must be instigated and all required voting bodies called to service. A time limit of 48 hours will be placed aside for this time of decision and all necessary documentation of previous agreements and decisions upon such is to be provided on a request-only basis.

1.2 Implementation of the Agreement

Once enacted, this treaty cannot be removed for a base time of seven (7) days. During this time it is necessary for each alliance to inform their members, either through posting this agreement in the forums or by a mass-messaging system, of this agreement and all of its requirements, amendments, and sections. Forty-Eight (48) hours after the original signing and validation process, it is expected that the terms below are respected by ALL members, regardless of size, points, or knowledge. If a member does not have good language skills, a translated version may be requested from the original drafter of the proposal.

1.3 Removal of the Agreement

As stated in point 1.2, this agreement may not be canceled by either party until the first seven (7) days have passed. After this time, the agreement may be removed and a temporary and mandated 48 hour Cease-Fire must be implemented. After this period, the two parties must formally decide upon the relations- War, Cease Fire, or to create a new Agreement.

1.4 Amending or 'Upgrading' this Agreement

To amend or 'upgrade' to a higher 'level' of diplomatic status (e.g. alliance or merge), both sides must agree upon the upgrade and the proposed amendment must be approved by at least 1/2 of the 'Founder' ranked leadership of both sides. Amending must not make this document unwieldy or cause an unbalanced relation between the two alliances. In other words, Vassalization, Colonization, or any other way that creates a Mandate Alliance is forbidden to be added to this agreement and a new agreement must be proposed in the stead.

2 Rules and Requirements of this Agreement

2.1 Forbidden Moves, Notions, and Actions

Neither side may allow members to do the following. If a member of side 'a' does one of the following, side 'a' is responsible for punishing that member to what side 'a' feels is a correct and just punishment, as prescribed by their own judicial system. If side 'b' then feels that side 'a's punishment was too little, then they may request a greater punishment. That punishment would then have to pass through the judicial system of side 'a' in a vote. a 1/3rd 'yes' vote would enact that punishment.

Advised punishments will follow in Clause 2.1a: Punishment Policy.

-Raiding, Farming, or Physically attacking any of the opposite party's material states or property, including, but not limited to, Cities and colonies.

-Blackmail or similar forceful remarks of bullying that deal with in-game concepts sent to any of the opposite party's members; in or out of game.

-Planting or requesting the planting of spies, traitors, or any sort of seeker in the opposite party, with the exception of Ambassadors (with the certification of the party in which the Ambassador will reside).

-The Enaction of so-called 'God' powers (as defined as: fire, flood, earthquake, storm, hurricane, Zeusí Bolts or other natural disasters).

-Disrespect of the others' personal, religious, ethnic, or general beliefs, including but not limited to Atheism, Brotherhood, Guilds, and in-game role-playing requirements.

2.1a Punishment Policy

Note: These are given limits of minimum and maximum punishments that may be given. Punishments may not exceed the maximum punishment, unless the side that the breaker is on decides to exceed the punishment prescribed, but that is entirely their choice. They may not enact a punishment less than the prescribed one.

A single raid, with a report available

Punishment Minimum: Warning

Punishment Maximum: Resource value (sent to defender from attacker) of the losses of both sides added together plus all resources taken, in any assorted mixture.

Two to Five raids, with at least two reports available

Punishment Minimum: Resource value of 1/2 of all resources taken to be sent to the defender from the attacker.

Punishment Maximum: Resource value of two (2) times all resources taken plus the total value of all losses on both sides sent to the defender.

Raids (of any amount) WITH retaliation

Punishment Minimum: Warning to both sides

Punishment Maximum: Resource value of one-and-a-half (1.5) times all resources taken, plus 1/2 the total value of all losses on both sides sent to the defender.

6 or more raids

Punishment Minimum: Resource value of all resources taken plus the value of all soldiers lost on both sides sent to the defender.

Punishment Maximum: Resource value of all resources taken times two, plus the value of all soldiers lost on both sides times two, sent to the defender.

The enaction of so-called 'God-Powers'

-Every time a so-called 'God-Power' is enacted, it is to be considered a single 'raid'. The standard raid system above is to be used.

Full-Retaliation Battle

-Defined as: When a player attacks another and that player retaliates and then the original player retaliates until at least four attacks have occurred total in this manner with the intention on killing each others' soldiers, instead of stealing resources.

Minimum Punishment: Both sides are to be warned.

Maximum Punishment: Demotion or Removal of Both players (the punishment for the first player and the second player must match, regardless of rank. A player of the lowest class is removed when demoted.)

Blackmail or similar threats

-This may fall under Game Administration. If so, the game Administration will administer the punishment as they feel fit.

Heresy, Spying, Traitors, and Ambassador Policy

For Planting a Spy: The member must not distribute information learned through the spy and must give the one who he/she spied upon 500 silver coins (at minimum).

For Implementing a Player as a Spy

Minimum: 1,000 of each resource is to be sent to the highest-ranking officer of the alliance that is spied upon from the spy and the spy's government for every report sent. The government that plants the spy is obligated to record the number of reports received.

Maximum: End Agreement of this Agreement phase is entered, Spy is marked as Refugee.

Ambassador Policy: Each party may send over or select one player to represent their wishes in the council of the other party if the other party so permits this.

2.1b Exceptions

A party is not liable for failure to perform the punishments or agreements listed above if such failure is the result of invasion by foreign enemies, hostilities that are greater than listed above, civil war or rebellion or revolution in which more than 1/4th of the party's members leave, a militaristic usurpation of power or the destruction of the signing regime. All beliefs are to be tolerated, including the belief in Atheism. These beliefs are to be accounted for in court when a side judges and punishes a member. These beliefs may not be used to excuse attempts at farming a member of the other party or Full-Retaliation Battle. That is inexcusable and must be punished, or this agreement would be considered unbalanced and lenient towards one group or another.

3 Ending Statement

May this document be presented to the proper authorities for discussion and decision and be replied to within 48 hours with either a decision, an amendment, or a new proposal.


So signed,

-Samulis, Consul of the City-States of Isilith, Drafter of this Policy

What a nice read, huh? Wouldn't you like getting that in your inbox. XD

If someone sends that, they will most likely be mocked and laughed at. I actually did write and send that and the guy actually refused to mail be back on it. I think he was about to go insane because of it... or because he couldn't stop laughing.

~End of Part 2a~

~Part 2b will continue with 'Part V: Upkeep of the System' and 'Part VI: Strategy and Defenses'... and then Part 3 will introduce some more stuff. :D~

05:16:12 Apr 20th 10 - Sir Deldrath of Hannador:


Part 2b


Welcome back to the next part of Part 2! Today we are going to learn more about keeping your government running WITHOUT all the work that it normally takes! A few simple steps can help spread out the work and make sure everyone is happy and their conquests are prosperous. Also in the second part of this, I will discuss common strategies and defensive tactics used by Kingdoms as a whole.

Part V: Upkeep of the System

We are going to begin where Part II left off. First, a bit of recap. Your KD is doing well, your vices are overseeing the preparation of blocker points and you have just conducted a bit of diplomacy with some locals. Let's say you were pretty lucky and used DE and managed to impress and draw in a neighboring KD to sign an era-long Mutual Protection Pact (much like the example of the MPP I showed above), we'll call them 'The Ally' from now on. The Ally lives to the north, with your KD being situated in the south-west corner of the map with some good blockers going up. There is also another KD called 'The Hostiles'. They live to the north-east, around the center of the map, and are a very good group... perhaps better than yours, but not better than you and 'The Ally' combined. The Hostiles don't want any diplomacy this era- they just want the realm for their own. Here's a picture of what the situation ideally looks like:

Of course, that is only a small part of your world. Since (right now) you cannot transverse between worlds, you are limited to your local KDs.

With the hostiles preparing to war you and the Allies, your only hope is to prepare for war. Your KD has about 10-20 members, 2 of which have played for over 20 eras and know the game well, 4-10 have played a moderate amount of time and are still learning a few bits of information and adapting to their races. 3-4 are players who know the basics, but still have a long way to go, and the remaining 3-4 are players who are playing their first era or so.

As said many times, the only way for a country to work is for its people to be educated. Without education, a country will remain underdeveloped until it can achieve the steps needed to educate their population. We'll just say those two 'vets' are your vices. Ask the vets if one of them can be mentor, and if one says yes, then ask them to send a mass-message to the whole KD asking if anyone needs advice or help on the game. Also, try to either put together a guide or copy the URL of a popular AND ACCURATE guide in the forums and send it around in a mass message as well. If a more elder player is playing the same race as a beginner, ask that elder player if they can be the personal tutor to the beginner and show them the ropes and tricks to their race.

With a more educated group, you can achieve far more than without the education part.

Another key aspect of keeping your system running is to now set weekly goals for the alliance. These goals could be as simple as 'everyone get an armory city at the flag point 'armories' so we can begin pumping troops' or as complex as 'everyone train 500 level 3 units and send them through the blocker 'blox' and then go through and kill all enemy scouts and burn everything you capture, but make sure you do this between 11:00 GMT and 15:00 GMT on Tuesday of this week'. Send out a weekly (or bi-weekly, or daily) goals list, or even better, personalize goals for each new member as well and try to help them learn more about the commands you will be issuing during wartime.

Like I said before, education is the key to keeping a well-oiled system. This cannot be more true when it comes to diplomatic agreements and world events. It is principle that you inform your members about new diplomatic agreements, battle strategies, and everything that is needed so they can make their own adjustments and (for the more advanced players) fine-tune their play style to best fit the kind of era they will be playing. Be sure to keep your Vices super informed about everything that happens, especially things like potential allies and enemies and also if a player sends a message that they will be away, you should inform your other leaders so they don't remove the player for inactivity or anything of that sort.

Part VI: Strategy and Defenses I

So, let's say The Hostiles declare war. What do you do now? Thanks to all that planning you did before, you hardly have to lift a finger to start the machine. Simply send a mass message notifying every member of the war declaration and also notify your allies, The Allies, to please prepare for war and make sure that they are secure in case The Hostiles try to attack them.

Since the enemy declared war, they will most likely be making the first assault. Before the war was declared, you should have been telling your members to send troops to the blocker cities and making sure the elves and magicians have magic cities under construction. If you have assigned a Vice to a certain front, tell the Vice what your plans are for that front. In most instances, your plans involve reaching a choke point and fortifying it with a blocker and lots of troops.

If the enemy is sending a group of medium-large forces at your blocker, do not worry, just make sure your gates are closed and your blocker is at its maximum buildings. Also, be sure to ask the blocker owner to report back to you daily either in a message or a forum topic on the status of the blocker. This will insure that your defenses are known to you and your council and that you can carefully plot out troop movements. Originally, when the blockers are going up, you should have made sure that you assign players (make sure it is a variety of races and skill levels wherever possible, and that the players are close to the blocker) to send troops to the blockers. It would be wise to make a goal that each player sends a good amount of a certain type of unit to their blocker a day. This way, the forces would build up quickly and exactly how you want them.

When war is eminent (certain to occur in the near future), you must be sure that your Kingdom enters a state called 'Mobilization' in which your people, instead of expanding, spend most of their resources on troops and military/magic science to help prepare the kingdom for war. Once the Kingdom is Mobilized, it is hard to keep it mobilized, like a 3-gear motor running in a 4th gear, for if you order your Kingdom to produce too high a ratio of troops to production/buildings, you will end up with not enough gold and food to keep the armies on the march, and your players will be reduced in economic strength too greatly to expand. That's why when you mobilize, you normally go on attack soon after.

If you station your troops in your blockers and shut the gates up, the enemy will wash against the blockers like a flood and the blockers will (hopefully) hold. If you then use offensive troops to launch a counter-offensive at the attacking armies and manage to clear their attacks, order a group of more offensive-styled players (you will probably figure out who is offensive and defensive when you are organizing your blockers) to prepare a force of offensive units to go on a strike. These players should be more elite players playing warlike races (elves w/ archmages, troll, and orc). Give them orders to burn what they take and to be sure to hit armories before mines.

By adopting what is called a Scorched Earth policy, you are showing no mercy to the enemies and causing them a swift and very damaging stroke that they most likely are not prepared for. In the case map above, you can see that The Hostiles are rather arrogant, feeling that their superior numbers and skills will hold your men at bay. By using a bit of guerrilla warfare, you will be able to cast a nasty blow at the well-organized players of The Hostiles.

Next, call your allies to help. How? Flanks. Tell your allies to go on one side of the enemy and attack straight-out. In the case of The Allies, tell them to send their best armies to attack that area on the top of the map that The Hostiles have poorly defended. It will (hopefully) hit the Hostiles WHILE your forces are ripping into their armory district.

If all goes to plan, The Hostiles will be beaten off your walls while your armies in their lands are destroyed. However, a strong stroke has been dealt and The Hostiles are now down many cities that could have been defended and are now burned. This will give you a period of momentary peace to re-build your forces and prepare a second strike, this time, a flank.

If you flank the enemy, they will be less likely to suspect your attack and will also be un-prepared. Also in a flank, you might find new allies to enlist and maybe even a good place to build a bunch of armories right outside their core area to train and attack from.

~End of Strategy Session 1~

I hope you will read the next part when it is released later. I am still waiting for any corrections or fixes people want/need made in the writing... I bet there are a large number of parts of my strategies that people will think are stupid and pointless. :)

07:08:58 Apr 26th 10 - Mr. Justin:

Um your statement i false in the beginning about there being no true democracies. The Devastators were a true democracy.

21:16:39 Apr 26th 10 - Sir Deldrath of Hannador:

I meant in the real world. There has never been a nation known to the world that has been a pure democracy.

By the way, the requirements of a pure democracy are the following:

-Instead of electing a leader or a council for leadership, the citizens make up the leader, like parts of a whole.
-Those citizens vote on every single matter. No one person is charged with the ability to make a decision, nor is any one group elected to power.
-An example would be if a citizen proposed the placement of a blocker, the entire KD would have to vote on it- he could not execute that strategic move without everyone else agreeing.
-Another example is if a citizen wants to move his army to a certain battle front, the whole KD would have to give their approval. This would most likely be included in a large document of battle strategy compiled by several citizens. That strategy packet would then be mailed to the entire KD for voting upon, and if approved, the strategies involved would be passed.

What they most likely were was a mixed Democracy, with either an elected or autocratic leader who makes orders on things like the two examples above, but the entirety of the people vote on things like declaring war or plans. Do not mix that up with a Pure Democracy.

For a KD to be a working Pure Democracy, the people of it would have to be logged on for almost the whole day and be able to type up massive amounts of text, be very intelligent (perhaps if every single one had a college education), and have a high amount of creative problem solving, rational thinking, and very good (and fast) critical analysis and thinking abilities.

In other words, it is barely humanely possible to have a 100% pure democracy. Also, since you have no leader that can issue orders when a strong fist needs to be set down (e.g. in a crisis in wartime), corruption, collapse, and a very bad issue with efficiency are all constant parts of a pure democracy.

The only way a pure democracy could be done in the real world is a group of equally aged people who do not mind sharing power, jobs, and knowledge and they must also live alone with no exterior pressure. Essentially, a small tribe could perhaps pull off a pure democracy.

07:37:54 May 7th 10 - Mr. Justin:

Ancient Greece was once a true democracy before they went to representative democracy and made the Senate. They got tired of counting the votes of all those people lol. Thats the only one know to mankind.

08:22:26 May 7th 10 - Mr. Aloysius Farmer:

Wow! Interesting article, thanks for posting!

08:40:50 May 7th 10 - Mr. Tyrgalon:

Justin, only the men who owned land had the right to vote in ancient Greece, so its actually not true that they had pure democracy there. And it was only in Athens.

00:47:26 May 11th 10 - Sir Deldrath of Hannador:

^ The rest of Greece remained the ever-so-reliable-backbone-government-of-the-ancient-world, Monarchy, where the king reigns supreme.

01:27:25 May 11th 10 - Mr. Theophilus XIX:

This Right wing propoganda seems to label the various forms of government differently.

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03:19:31 May 11th 10 - Sir Deldrath of Hannador:

They do agree that Democracy would never work. In VU, Autocracy does exist, when you have a single leader with no Vices. It is less effective than an oligarchy, but still works. I do agree with their stance on government in most cases, actually, but their definition of Democracy as a transition phase is... a little off to me. Everything else they said pretty much makes sense, although they do denounce Autocracies... I still feel they can exist when the ruler has no party behind him, just servants.

13:36:01 May 14th 10 - Mr. Theophilus XIX:

Look at History though.

The Roman Democracy became an Oligarchy, the Church became an Oligarchy, The French revolution? After a few years of having the 'Esates General', it too, became an oligarchy.

History repeats itself. America is headed that way, with people having less and less power and influence.

02:56:45 May 16th 10 - Sir Deldrath of Hannador:

I read a really interesting article a while back on how eventually every government will become an oligarchy- that it is unavoidable. I do agree with the fact that Oligarchies are by far the most efficient way to rule a kingdom or a land, but it will never be the most popular. By my reckoning, every major republic in the world will be an Oligarchy within 1,000 years of that original change at MOST. Rome did it in 600, and they had a SOLID Republic. There is only one fact we must remember- that there has been, and always will be, people who want power and nothing else- no enemies, no dissenters, just pure and obsessive power.

03:09:52 May 16th 10 - Sir Deldrath of Hannador:

In fact, the Roman Republic almost scored higher on the Popular Representation chart than America! They had two equal bodies, one for the lower-class and one for the upper. In America, we two for the upper. Think about it- a man with no money cannot be a senator, because to get elected you have to spend thousands of dollars on ads and campaigning. In ancient Rome, you were given Senatorship either by the blood in your veins or because you were a good speaker. Cicero, one of the most famous Roman Senators, was an Equestrian- that means middle class. I don't think a Middle-Class person in the US could EASILY become Senator. He became Consul, a rank equal to President, just by being a good speaker!

Also, the Romans didn't have telephones, the internet, mechanized warfare, etc. They solved things with guys on horseback carrying pieces of paper and legions of soldiers marching around. If corruption was strong enough in the Senate after 600 years to destroy a powerful Republic in the days when it took 20x the time to send a message between the frontiers of Rome as it does today, then what about today? America has been going for almost 250 years, and if the previous fact is correct, then Watergate was just the tip of the iceberg.

Just as a disclaimer- i'm not talking about Obama and anyone who sits at the helm right now, i'm talking about the system as a whole. In my opinion, there is nothing more our current leadership can do... it's like the UN- they don't have the authorization to just say 'everything's better' and end all the problems like an Autocracy or Oligarchy can*.

*without international issues.

03:26:07 May 16th 10 - Lady Katie Holmes:

"In America, we two for the upper. Think about it- a man with no money cannot be a senator, because to get elected you have to spend thousands of dollars on ads and campaigning."

Well, yes and no; even in Roman times, commoners did not make it into either house; the US I would argue has more for the lower class than the upper class compared to Rome.  In the US, it's based on votes, and there are a lot more lower/middle class votes than upper in sheer #s.  Then, once you get to the Caesars, the two houses were still there...and completely ignored.  If you want a better democratic gov't see the Greeks...

"I do agree with the fact that Oligarchies are by far the most efficient way to rule a kingdom or a land"

That's extremely doubtful, a dictatorship is more efficient than a oligarchy.  Being a dictatorship does not mean you cannot delegate, just means only one person for final decisions;  IRL many of the most efficient gov'ts were dictatorships (Julius/Augustus Caesar, Hitler, Stalin)

05:18:03 May 17th 10 - Sir Deldrath of Hannador:

The Romans had a Plebian Senate as well as a Patrician Senate. Plebians, as one may know, are the poorest of Rome. They are below Equestrians- the middle-class. The single problem you run into every time you look at a Dictatorship is what the video said- there are advisers, and even if the Dictator makes the decision, his wife tells him what she hears, his children caution him, and his best general still stands next to him. This was especially evident in the Roman Empire, where Rome still had her Senates to overlook the Emperor, and particularly bad Emperors were killed by their own guards- the Praetorians.

A pure Dictatorship is about as likely in the real world as a pure Democracy, though I do feel they are far more applicable and, if the term Autocracy is used, should make it clear that Stalin and Caesar both  were both Dictators. With Autocracy, giving Auto, meaning 'one', and 'cracy', meaning 'to rule'; it can be said that the 'one' can also mean one idea or perhaps one family or one person holds most of the power and is the 'face' of the ruling party.

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