Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Imagine

02:22:36 Feb 12th 12 - Ashe Annie Fortune Lightshield (Ms. Fortune The Thane):

Imagine you're staring at the earth for any length of time. And then, try to convince yourself, that god created the whole universe, for ONE of the ten million or so species of life, that inhabit a speck of dust among the universe, the earth.

Now take it a step further:

Imagine that everything was made for just a single shade of that species, or gender, or ethnic or religious subdivision.

We can recognize here a shortcoming in some circumstances serious, in our ability to understand the world.

Characteristically, we seem compelled to project our own nature, onto nature.

04:25:27 Feb 12th 12 - Mr. Wang Love:


05:02:58 Feb 12th 12 - Grandmaster Of Imperia (Duke Sesugh Igba of Fulani):

this is a common misconception of atheists. That their is no known religion that says that the universe is solely for our pleasure. There are religions that charge us with the protectors of the earth , and that say we can enjoy all the pleasures of the earth. However most religions put us as something that was thought of after the creation of the earth....Unless all these atheists or non-believers in a Abrahamic God have been reading some other book. (im an agnostic so im not tryna bible peddle here , just pointing it out )

10:08:10 Feb 12th 12 - Tyr (Mr. Tyrminus Prime):

That is true, tho far to many (if not the majority) of the main religions are self centred in nature :)

14:33:34 Feb 12th 12 - Percy (Mr. Percy):

The whole earth and everything in it being made for one species of life is a common misconception. Everything was made so it could glorify God. Humans were made in the image of God, and we were his prized possession over the earth and were given authority over the earth, but all so we could bring praise and honor and glory to God forever. And God didnt do this for one specific group of people, He did it for everyone. Sure, He chose the Israelites at the beginning, but that is in part because of the promises God gave earlier people of that region, from Abraham and Issac and Jacob. Even then, you could still worship God it you wanted to even if you werent an Israelite. So there too, all this didnt happen for one group of people, but for everyone, and this was made a point when Jesus died for all of us, so we could all come close to Him,  no matter our backgrounds

15:25:08 Feb 12th 12 - Mr. Fitz of Arunun:

Ah, the good ol' religious debate thread again :P.

You have to make a distinction between the commonly pedalled beliefs and what the bible and similar religious texts actually say. As has previously been said they don't actually say the earth was made for humanity. Where that comes from is religion itself rather than the texts they base themselves on.

The fact that it does that just further exposes religion for what it is: Idealistic notions created by humanity so they can feel like there is some greater purpose to their existence. The alternative is accepting there is no real purpose to what we do, no greater authority figure that we can base our lives on. Something a lot of people apparently find hard to do.

Humans were made in the image of God

This particular one goes on in that vein again, placing some added importance on our existence. But in reality that argument doesn't even work in part, you only have to look at humanity and compare it with God's principles.

If we're made in God's image, then why do we display so many traits he would find displeasing? Homosexuality is the classic example: In all likelihood caused by our genes, something we cannot control, yet God will condemn you for that? For being how you have been created?

Carrying on with that, why would God create us, then put our conciousness in such a frail body that is prone to damage and illness? If we're made in his image and he is a loving God, surely he wouldn't want our existence to be such a fragile thing. Why would he then create us so we are driven by instincts that often go against his rules. The only thing that makes sense then if God exists is that he is a sadistic prick, revelling in watching his creations trying desperately to follow his rules, but unable to do so because of the way he has created them.

So if he doesn't exist, I have no need to base my life on a set of rules that I don't agree with. If he does, then I still won't follow them: why follow a greater being simply because he is more powerful, regardless of their nature? Doing so is the act of a coward.

*waits for the arguments to start*

17:01:17 Feb 12th 12 - Tyr (Mr. Tyrminus Prime):

Well said fitz :)

18:04:53 Feb 12th 12 - Osiris the new guy (Mr. Finwe):

19:14:01 Feb 12th 12 - Percy (Mr. Percy):

I this is an argument, then I wont respond here anymore, for arguments have no purpose and do nothing but cause destruction. Only a debate where both sides are calm and are willing to talk about how things are can accomplish anything on a subject such as this. For if both have closed ears, how can either try to convince the other of anything?

19:44:20 Feb 12th 12 - Mithras (Mr. Fitz of Arunun):

That is a typical response from someone who is unable to justify their belief when faced with someone putting forward their disagreements. I am perfectly willing to listen to your opinion, and if it holds any credence under scrutiny to accept it. All I have done is put forward my opinion and explained the problems I see in yours: that is a debate. There has been no loss of composure/calm either, so I don't see any problem with anyone refusing to listen simply through being stubborn. My ears are open, but you cannot convince me you are right unless you bring forth a solid case, which you have yet to do :). Being open to other ideas does not equate to accepting everything that is put in front of you if it sounds nice and gives you a warm fuzzy feeling inside, but that seems to be the way you understand it.

I was previously a christian, so I understand your position. If you are part of something that gives you a sense of purpose and belonging, it is hard to really look at and think through any arguments that would upset that. If you value the truth you should look past that initial gut instinct reaction, and actually consider both sides of the argument.

It is actually quite ironic you accuse others of having closed ears, another thing religious groups do frequently. While you call on others to open their ears, your own are firmly shut to anything that disagrees with your beliefs. So discontinue your involvement if you wish, but don't try to justify it with things that simply aren't true.

00:14:32 Feb 16th 12 - Ashe Annie Fortune Lightshield (Ms. Fortune The Thane):

The need to be loved is a need to be shown love; in affection, personal attention, gifts occasionally. To be emotionally supported, involved with others who appreciate you, while expressing yourself, with others who apparently give a damn about you. Purely psychological, which is neither good nor bad, but open to making the wrong choices in re friends and/or lifestyles.

You might be one of those individuals who is very insecure, not trusting yourself perhaps because you've made some bad decisions in relationships, but maybe you're naturally that way. So, you might be one of many who believe others have the answers, share your experiences, deepest needs, hopes. And Jesus is their answer, or some other who speaks for God. Whatever; you're involved. You want this? Tell me. Many of your fellow members become fixated, dedicated, rabid, and with them you are conjoined in enthusiasm and passion, chemically bonded in each other's brain, vulnerable in need and desire.

What began as answers become responsibilities to maintain through more involvement, commitment, and dependency. Decision making is out of your hands. That initial ecstasy is not repeated, although enough but less intent joys occur to keep involvement ongoing.

The pleasure cruise of promise and fulfillment has floated out, meanwhile, and unawares, one is far out at sea, far from terra firma. Isolated and, as they say, "shanghaied". All of the needs and necessities must be met "on board;" all former relationships are back there on land. The ship of Hope, camaraderie, absolute belief and trust, is ruled by those in charge. Demonstrations of one's loyalty and love, willingness to sacrifice, are demanded, where before these things were assumed. There is an intensity, perhaps thrill, in such reanimation of first zeal. Does not greater sacrifice equal the reasons for it, and the less reason to question them? Not only a renewal, but a revival of them. lt's pure emotion, whether for God, Jesus, Mohammed, Hitler, David Koresh, the Taliban. It's all psychological manipulation. And it goes on continually. These are the, "beautiful, uplifting, socially supported, fulfilling, spiritual" environments?

So intense can they become that babies are left to die for the cause, friends brutalize and denounce friends, to punish their lack of dedication and hesitancy to be fully committed. Such "slackers" are treated as traitors for being independent.

To be fair, things don't get that out of hand, though they did when religions ruled societies. As a rule, believers are dedicated to getting high, because belief systems consist of people of like mind, "telling themselves stuff" over and over and over, and rejecting any thoughts which roil the waters, and those who are "missing out."(They want you to experience their psychological bliss.)

Personally: No thank you. Been there, done that. Heard all the testimonies, like, “Don’t you understand that you don't fall in love by thinking about it; that what you don't see is more real than what you do, that life is a gift for which we must thank the Giver, that you have to kind of lose your mind and abandon thinking in order to connect with the spiritual? Look around you at all the newly born again and see their joy! They know in their hearts.”

To get you hooked, the first one is free.

Psychological, not spiritual, is what it is. And watch what happens when the manipulators smilingly welcome you in. Compassion is eroded, conscience is hijacked by degrees, hypocrisy becomes acceptable, and contradictions don't exist in doctrines - no matter what the faith. No thank you.

If I give up my self, I give up on myself. To give up on oneself is to allow some other self to take over. Psychologically, that's unhealthy and destructive.

00:34:05 Feb 16th 12 - Osiris the new guy (Mr. Finwe):

God made me in his image. you love god. so come over here and let god show you whats loves alllll about

04:20:50 Feb 16th 12 - Mr. Jabba The Ugly Hutt:

Most religions are nothing more than after-life insurance policies that "believers" embrace because of their fear of the unknown.

12:40:23 Feb 16th 12 - Electric Magneton:

I only know one single truth in this world and universe and it is what my grandpa once told me...

"slap my ass, and call me cool jay"

So if you live your life with that philosophy nothing else matters.

15:31:20 Feb 16th 12 - Tyr (Mr. Tyrminus Prime):

So true Mithras and Fortune :)

16:17:34 Feb 16th 12 - HorusPanic (Ms. Elf):

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