| Honorable Side of Peacekeepers |
And as to the scouts, how about mentioning there were two 50Ks prepping on two different towns of mine before I sent those out. Forgot about those? Oh yeah, that would make a difference, so lets try to tarnish anothers name, look at yourself before you cast the stone *beep*.
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I don't see how we "used Lady G and your 'good names' to backstab an old ally".
And as for the allowing another KD to build an armory was because YOU were casting from behind our blockers. So -you- were attacking a known ally of ours from inside our core. Why should we not let them attempt to deal with the situation?
Come on, you are talking about being fair and all that was our way of being "neutral" so -we- wouldn't take anything of an ally. They just used the same thing you did and that is to toss a wall over the river.
The only reason I voted Yes to NAP with you guys was because of A) your good history with PKS B)I thought that you guys would be smart and not attack our Ally from our core. (keep in mind all 3 of you knew our allies because they were -your- allies (when you were with us) as well)
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When we rejoined the game, you were concerned that BoW were going to be a threat. They were not interested at all in talking peace after whatever went on last era.
G and I both offered to try and talk them round in order to relieve a threat to PKS. Grim (your leader, remember?) asked Galadriel to negotiate peace and - specifically - to offer them a NAP on our standard terms. The only reason BOW were even prepared to consider the offer was because it came from Galadriel, with my backing that it was genuine.
Meanwhile, without posting anything on forum and without telling me or Galadriel, who were negotiating peace, you were also arranging to hand over a blocker to Carnage so that they could still have access to attack if we got a NAP with BoW. That plan was never mentioned to me or Galadriel until after she had sent the NAP terms, in good faith, on Grim's authority.
So, you used our good name as people BoW would trust in order to stop or remove a threat from them while at the same time arranging to get round the "no access" clause if Carnage wanted to kill them. That's obviously a clause that you like to twist however it suits you at the time, perhaps you should try being honest and simply remove it from your standard agreement ;-)
I would add that Carnage are blameless in that - it's natural for them to want to get to their allies - but deliberately offering a NAP which you knew you could only get through our good name, while secretly planning a way to get round one of its terms was an enormous abuse of our good name and a terrible stain on your reputation.
It was a tactic that NT at their worst would have been proud of.
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Hello. You just told us the honorable side of peacekeepers. Is there a less honourable side??
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Read the post above about how to get round NAP terms and make your own mind up, Mr G ;-)
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Well Donut, the talks to give Carnage that blocker were in before telling you to do the NAP.
And we did give BOW 8 RL days to consider a NAP, I'm sorry but if you can't decide anything in 8 RL days then that is a sign you don't want the NAP.
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http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/users/06/adem/pictures/absolut/images/absolut%20bull*beep*.jpg
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Sigh, I wasn't planning posting anything, but in order to clear things up a little I will (after all it seems everyone is bent on getting everything out in the open). Carnage came to us and asked us if we could hold that blocker so they could use it as a launching post for a BoW offensive. At the time the blocker did not have a single point of defense (mt's and walls with no armies in it). So we suggested to them that they should take it so it could be guaranteed to be secure. Now, to get the timeline in order. This conversation took place before any talks with BoW had started. Now, nobody had an army up there to take it until after BoW talks had started, so it may have appeared that way to you Donut, but the fact is we had already worked that out.
Would it have been better for us to deny the blocker that we had already promised? Possibly. As much as I try to do the right thing I make mistakes. But on one hand we either had to deny someone a blocker already promised, or allow an access point for a war. The situation was very much being stuck between a rock and a hard place. We stood to upset somebody no matter which way we decided.
You all can continue the flame wars if you'd like. I just thought I'd stop by and explain this aspect of the situation a little better.
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Mr. Tiddlywinks
11/25/2007 12:20:29 AMWell Donut, the talks to give Carnage that blocker were in before telling you to do the NAP.
That is exactly my point, Mr T. You made it so much clearer than I did and I thank you for that.
The talks about giving Carnage were in before you asked Galadriel and me to use our good names make a NAP, but you didn't tell us that such talks were happening.
We've played over two rl years with no-one doubting our word, and you feel entitled to put our word and honour on the line, in a very dodgy deal, without telling us.
Do you understand yet why we feel pissed about it?
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Mr. Artimeus
11/25/2007 12:34:32 AM
Would
it have been better for us to deny the blocker that we had already
promised? Possibly. As much as I try to do the right thing I make
mistakes. But on one hand we either had to deny someone a blocker
already promised, or allow an access point for a war. The situation was
very much being stuck between a rock and a hard place. We stood to
upset somebody no matter which way we decided.
I've never questioned the timeline Mr A. What I have questioned, and what Galadriel (and Karac) left PKS over was your complete failure to post those talks on the forum AND then to watch as we posted our attempts at negotiating a NAP (using our reputation to guarantee it since BoW wouldn't trust anyone else from PKS) without telling us that this deal was happening, and that our reputation might be on the line. If we had known about the blocker deal before opening talks, instead of 3 rl days after, there is NO way we would have even considered putting our names on the line over it.
Bad politics? maybe.
Difficult decision? probably.
Betrayal of G and me by allowing us to sacrifice our good name for your incompetence? 100% undoubtedly.
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explain as much as you want, I don't care.
Next time better close your core with your own blockers and keep it yourself.
Then you don't have to kill NAPD players armies (bows, two of them were mine, who are taking this blocker and are returning the sneak attack to those who come through first (carnage) for defending your allies (carnage)....
Just make it next time better and everything is fine...
*make myself a new entry on the list of useless negotiatons with Pks*
Oh I forget to mention, next time NAP our enemies pls ;)
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Mr C, I honestly hope you don't include Galadriel, who opened the talks, in the "do not negotiate" but, if you do, then I think my point is made - a 100% honourable player's reputation damaged by the *beep*ty backdoor politics of the (once) Honourable Peacekeepers.
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After talking with KD members we have come to the following conclusion.
---
Well we waited 8 real life days for a response to the NAP...but no
response. We waited 8 hours for the BoW armies to move off of the city
that was ours and no response. So they got moved. Get over it! We took
the wall back to resolve the problem. Get over it! YOU(D) should've never
been made a Vice. YOU(D) should've been just another member and not given
any power what-so-ever. In my short time being on here this was the
first time we EVER had a problem in PKS until now and that problem
revolves around YOU(D)!
--
On a side note, does the D stand for Douche?
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You, Mr. Tiddlywinks, have clearly not been around for long enough time to even THINK about posting about this matter.
You should ATLEAST know what the D stands for...
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Tiddly, how long have you been around? A few days? Must be with your dumb responses. D may have caused problems because he tried to bring PKS name back to what it once was, honorable. Not the friggin lapdogs of carnage ( no offence carnage, still think you guys rock), nor the scavengers you were last era when carnage did all the work and you picked off the scraps. D may have caused problems, but they were for the better of the kingdom, so that way you could be a self sufficient kd once more as you obviously arent now. Hide behind your blockers, wait for Carnage to break thru, then slingshot into undefended cores.... weak. Get heat from a larger kd, and bend, then break, sc*ewing over two of your most loyal members in a single stroke, along with one of your most unwavering allies.
D for Douche? No, D for Dauntless!!
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what is PKS without D and G? not the kingdom i once loved...................Donut, I would have u in my kingdom anyday!!!!!
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To anyone to still cares:
Tiddlywinks and I have been in PKS for over a year now. The whole time that I have been in VU I have been under PKS. The miss communication that may have happened was due to one simple fact. There Era we had more members that we usually have, and over 1/2 of the members play in our spare time at work-AT THE SAME JOB!!!. So forgive us if we think that the word had been spread because we forget that some people are <flame> from the UK and love to play freakin Myst URU. Can't they find another game anyway what is up with that? </flame> I dont even know why we are still arguing about this. What is done is done. No more of this thou art more holyer the I art crap. I mean it is pointless. "My KD is more Honorable then yours is" If we still want to have this discussion then what we need to do is go to gametap.com and download Lego Racers then we can open our forums up so that everyone and there mother can see them (because we're more honorable) and have a flame war while we are waiting for the next Lego level to load.
I am done with this bicker if you need drama watch Jerry Springer.
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Thanks, K, K and Soccer, much appreciated.
Mr Tinkywinky, congratulations - you managed to further the discussion by entirely missing the point on the PKS treachery (in fact, by not even mentioning it). I take it PKS now work on the basis that anything is acceptable and "honourable" as long as it's (a) not cheating and (b) you haven't actually said you won't do it? I don't agree with that, but if that's now the simplistic PKS view of the world then be careful - someone could turn round and bite you with it one day ;-)
Mr Uro - why are you named after the European currency if you have such a low opinion of non-Americans? And for god sake when will you guys learn to spell? It's EURO with an E!
Anyway, G and I (apart from a complete break from the game) have been in PKS for over two years and, in that time it reached up to 35 players at one point. Communication was not a problem - even with Mr Giza once we discovered he was Lithuanian.
Hell, I'd even left behind a full forum for you guys to post things on - things like "We're in talks to hand that blocker to Carnage". But why on earth would anyone want to know little details like that before they, for instance, were asked to start peace talks?
As you say, over 1/2 of you work in the same job. Communication is easy when you can look at each others screens or discuss things across the office, but how the fcuk does your company ever do business with people from outside given your obvious inability to communicate further than the next desk??? ;-)
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My be it stands for something else sir Ooh you know like Uromastyx-Like the lizard. Next Era I will spell it out for everyone. As for discussing issues in the office we are not the first ones to do so (Legacy I know for a fact.) Just let this issues lay, what is done is done. We understand that in your eyes we are satanic. If anyone other than BoW ,and who ever that queer is that keeps calling us *beep*, thinks that we are evil then say so like I said earlier, WE KNOW!! You think we are evil other then your KD and BoW there aren't many that feel the same way.
Still dont know why we are still talking about this.
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Most people just dont feel the need to waste time pointing out the obvious.
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Mr U, named after a reptile. How apt. As for "If anyone.... thinks that we are evil.... like I said earlier, WE KNOW". Are you quite sure that's what you meant to say?
Personally, I don't really think PKS are good enough at the game to be classed as "Evil". I would have said more like "slightly unsavoury" or "not people you'd buy a used car off".
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I have stood by and listened while others have deafened PKS and I guess it's time to set the record straight. I've spent the last two days sifting through messages and forum posts to gather this info into the correct timeline.
I also have been with PKS for almost 2 year now. Yes, when Donut & Lady G rejoined the game we were talking about the possibility of BoW attacking us. Negus himself posted first about it and we were moving troops in preparation.
As far as me asking Galadriel -specifically- to ask for a NAP this is not true. This is part of the conversation between Lady G & myself about BoW which she initiated and asked about an informal NAP.
Talk with Drakos and we can present it in the forum. We've been trying to give everyone a say in kingdom policies and even voting if it is mixed feelings.
Grim
Ms. Galadriel [TH*beep*) GOOD BAD
Any agreement made with Drakos could only be between us and him, peace between us would be on my word that we (PKS) will not attack, and his word that BoW would not attack, for many eras that is how peace was kept between our kingdoms.
If we move east with the agreement of a neutral stance i don't see a problem, if Carnage attack them or they attack Carnage it will not part of the agreement between PKS and BoW. An agreement with BoW for a neutral agreement will leave PKS free to pass through their territory to attack Legacy and Phi, if Carnage wanted the same i think they would they would need to broach it with Drakos.
If this is type o*beep*reement is ok with you i will open discussion with him but also mention to him that i will have to open it up for kingdom discussion, which is also the way BoW works
Galadriel
You (10/28/2007 10:51:58 AM)
That would be fine with me and you can post our conversation in the forum so everyone knows my stance on the matter.
Grim
We were discussing BoW attacking Ignorentia after he joined PKS then on 10/30 Lady G went directly to offering a NAP before any discussion in the forum. During this time BoW had taken the blocker into our area from Carnage and then proceeded to begin moving troops through our area to attack Carnage.
Remember at this time we had a formal agreement with Carnage and had been working with them the past couple of era.
We warned BoW on 11/8 that we would not allow them to move troops through our area to attack Carnage. At this time BoW had still not agreed to a NAP. Quietone messaged me that BoW was attacking them on the same day. BoW kept sending armies through our area and when we removed the troops by force on 11/10 Lady G and Karac left PKS. Why BoW thought it would be OK to cross our area to attack one of our allies is beyond me. We at no time gave them that impression.
Donut made a nap with their new KD (THSP) on 11/11 which most of PKS agreed to. On 11/14 Donut left for THSP due to Carnage attacking them. On the same day Carnage agreed not to attack them "on our word" that they would not cause Carnage any trouble.
THSP began trying to help BoW against DB after Donut managed to get troops through one of our northern blockers when it was opened for Carnage. He knew if he asked for the gate to be opened to allow him out we would also have to allow DB in. The way I read the NAP terms is also that if his army managed to get through our blocker into DB area we must allow them passage also. He didn't agree and said we were just "sucking up" to the larger kingdoms.
During this time Donut was also casting magic at DB from behind the protection of our blockers. Then he walled across the river to try to build up troops to fight more. When Drenthiniovic did the same Donut messaged me saying DB was jumping into our core to get around the blockers. Of course he said nothing about what he had been doing. I asked him to hold on until I found out from Quietone what was happening. Donut moved scouts to the wall & the city Drenthiniovic had dropped while still casting freeze on them.
I had messaged both this while I was trying to get to the bottom of what was happening in our core.
If THSP attacks Booh I will have no choice but to open our gates so you can defend it. If Drenthiniovic attacks the gates will stay closed.
Donut proceeded to goad Drenthiniovi*beep*il he attacked Donut's scout that had been camping on his city so Donut felt this gave him the go ahead to burn the city.
During most of this time PKS endured little jabs and prods (mostly from Donut) about our honor and being *beep*lickers of Carnage & DB. Donut even we so low as to use his friendship with one of our longstanding members to pull information as to what we were talking about so he could pass it on "out of context" to our allies to make us look bad.
With this kind of treatment to our KD and trying to turn our allies against us, I posted a poll to end the NAP with THSP. Four of our members voted no to end the NAP. One of the no votes was only because he felt that THSP wasn't worth ending our record of never ending a NAP. One of the other no votes was from Donuts "friend" (my son-in-law who didn't get the whole story) wanted to change his vote. THSP wanted to make this look like we were giving into pressure by DB to end the NAP. This was not the case by any means.
I have counted Donut & Lady Galadriel as more than just friends on VU for so very long and it saddens me to think that relationship is now gone. But, I stand by my actions and that of my kingdom. We have done nothing wrong.
We are proud of Peacekeeper and have nothing to hide. I do apologize that some of our members allowed their selves to be pushed into name calling and arguing in the forum. But, they are proud to be a Peacekeeper and could not stand by while our name was being degraded.
I have set up a group on the PKS forum that I'm glad to add any Viceroy
or King from any of the involved kingdoms that wants to read through
our forum to see how PKS is run.
http://peacekeepers.freeforums.org/index.php
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You, Mr. Tiddlywinks, have clearly not been around for long enough time to even THINK about posting about this matter. You should ATLEAST know what the D stands for... Wow, this is a reminder that sarcasm just doesn't go across text well :P How would I not know what the D actually stood for? -sigh- And -I- am the dumb one :P. That post, yeah.. that's what this entire forum is. Stupid bickering. ;) -- And Karac, the D doesn't stand for Dauntless silly... ;) -- Oh and good post Grim!
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Despite differences to date, I have to agree with Mr Tinkywinky here, that is a great post Sir Grim - the news team at Fox would be proud of the editing!
Won't give a full answer just now, it's 6:40 AM and have a lot to do this morning (Brutus and Hagar know that's not just a cop-out) but I'll get back to you soon ;-)
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Well Tiddywinks. to quote you:
" In my short time being on here....."
that sentence in the addition to "On a side note, does the D stand for Douche?"
clearly ruined the sarcasm ;)
And hey, i'm the master of sarcasm! i usually get it! :P
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As a slight aside from the festivities, for those of you who knew about it (and cared), Lady G is back home, safe, and in only moderate pain. The good news is that means she's not in a temper, the bad news is that the post-op morphine may make her armies wobble a bit. If they happen to crash into one of your towns and wreck it, it's really not her fault :P
Normal flames will continue after some sleep ;-)
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Good news! I was concerned about it being her writing hand, i mean, how else was she going to be able to write such great posts? Have D do it?
I do feel for you D, a woman on morphine can be a good thing or it can be a very ugly and bad bad bad thing.
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She's feeling a lot better today, but wearing me out doing stuff she can't manage herself :P
Hence the longer than planned delay on the full timeline in response to Grim, but here goes. Bold stuff is comment, forum posts have been split as normal then italic then normal etc, and in-game messages have been colour coded. Hope it keeps it readable:
Galadriel and I rejoined PKS about the 26th October. On the 27th October, the following thread was started on the PKS forum:
Rothgar Negus
Viceroy
PostPosted: 27 Oct 2007 03:04 am Post subject: BoW
To open discussion on this topic, I think we should begin moving small numbers of troops as they are built to the southeast part of our kingdom and start building our infrastructue down there for a war with BoW.
I feel that as soon as Predator is being bounced out. BoW is going to attack before we really get Predator slapped. Moving troops and building some armory towns and praps some economy in that direction would provide a launching platform for attack or counter-attack.
Let the debate begin.
izulien
Debutante
PostPosted: 27 Oct 2007 03:25 am
I think it's always a good idea to prepare but we don't need to attack and probably not a good idea to show we are preparing too much.
Donut
Viceroy
PostPosted: 27 Oct 2007 10:51 pm
Agree with Iz that small movements would be best. There may be a chance of avoiding all-out conflict (if we want to) but making overtly aggressive moves that way would make it less likely.
I won't deny that, personally, I'd prefer not to go to war with them having had an excellent relationship with Drakos and Co last time I was playing. That said, I know that positions change and it's been a while.
Galadriel
Lady
PostPosted: 28 Oct 2007 02:48 pm
I have had a message from Drakos, would anyone have a problem with me arranging a neutral stance between the two kingdoms? He bears no ill will towards us but seems unsure as to how our kingdom is going to behave.
Duke Drakos [BoW] (10/28/2007 3:26:12 PM)
Greetings Mylady,
It was with great delight that I recieved your message. Always noce to hear from former comrades in arms.
I was also more than a bit saddened that PKS and BoW came to be on opposite sides. We had a long history of being friendly. It is a bit easier to take now that I realise Charlie Brown and Lucy were not involved in the descion to be fighting the wolves. Smile
-Drakos
Galadriel
Lady
PostPosted: 28 Oct 2007 03:55 pm
I have been speaking with our Lord and Master [Grim]
Here is what is going on at the moment
You (10/28/2007 3:48:00 PM)
I have had a message from Drakos, would you have a problem with me arranging a neutral stance between the two kingdoms? Of course this would be the basic you don't attack us we don't attack you agreement we had for many eras but we know PKS can keep this agreement as can BoW who have proved it in the past. He bears no ill will towards us but seems unsure as to how our kingdom is going to behave.
G
Sir Grim Darkhammer [PKS] (10/28/2007 4:30:08 PM) GOOD BAD
Galadriel, I would be open to peaceful relations with BoW. I have always held Drakos in high regard and would rather not fight BoW. But I'm sure we will be moving east before the end of the era. I would prefer going after Phi & Legacy and not worry about any one else. Hagar wants to go get his city back that was taken by BoW but I think we can keep him calm. But I cant say the same for Carnage.
We have had the same relations with Scientist & FF for many era & hope we can keep those also. But, Scientist has said that all relations are up to his council.
Talk with Drakos and we can present it in the forum. We've been trying to give everyone a say in kingdom policies and even voting if it is mixed feelings.
Grim
You (10/28/2007 4:44:10 PM)
Any agreement made with Drakos could only be between us and him, peace between us would be on my word that we (PKS) will not attack, and his word that BoW would not attack, for many eras that is how peace was kept between our kingdoms.
If we move east with the agreement of a neutral stance i don't see a problem, if Carnage attack them or they attack Carnage it will not part of the agreement between PKS and BoW. An agreement with BoW for a neutral agreement will leave PKS free to pass through their territory to attack Legacy and Phi, if Carnage wanted the same i think they would they would need to broach it with Drakos.
If this is type o*beep*reement is ok with you i will open discussion with him but also mention to him that i will have to open it up for kingdom discussion, which is also the way BoW works
Galadriel
Sir Grim Darkhammer [PKS] (10/28/2007 4:51:58 PM) GOOD BAD
That would be fine with me and you can post our conversation in the forum so everyone knows my stance on the matter.
Grim
Clearly, Galdadriel did as Grim asked and posted the conversation on the forum, showing his stated (to her) position that he wanted peace with BoW, and that she was trying to arrange peace relying on HER word to Drakos. So the other PKS players had no excuse for not knowing this.
She offered the NAP terms to Drakos on the 30/10:
Duke Drakos [BoW] (10/30/2007 11:14:12 PM) GOOD BAD
I am glad it died down. PKS is posted as a "Talks in progress-Do not hit" status. If you think your Kingdom is open to it we could discuss possible NAP or some other form of alliance if you would like.
This age BoW is running on a "true" council set up. My Vices vote on every issue, and I only get involved in case of a tie. Just wanted to make you aware of that as I can't guarantee it would be automatically approved. I give them 24 ticks to voice their opinion/vote. If they do not vote in that time they lose all right to complain and second guess implimented descions. Has made for a very cohesive leadership team this age.
Of course if its apparent sooner than the 24 ticks that is decided, we immeadiately contact you.
-Drakos
You (10/30/2007 11:25:00 PM)
We would be happy to go for a NAP and i have added our terms below which are of course up for discussion
Galadriel
Forgetting all this about BoW taking 8 days to consider the offer, we only have to move forward two more days to see what happened next. The following messages were sent from Grim to Galadriel:
Sir Grim Darkhammer [PKS] (11/1/2007 12:49:06 AM) GOOD BAD
We have no reason to go after Legacy unless they attack us or start moving toward our area. I'm all for going after Predators, Zeon, & Phi this era. Thats more than enough to keep us busy.
Never wanted any type of offensive against FF, would rather not fight BoW. As long as Legacy makes no offensive moves on us we have no reason to do the same. We are NAPed with Carnage, DB, & MAD.
We possibly have an agreement with BoW. One thing on that agreement Carnage has already requested passage through our southern blocker to the BoW area. And are requesting to take that same blocker for their own. I cant really tell Carnage no at this time.
Sir Grim Darkhammer [PKS] (11/2/2007 7:14:43 AM) GOOD BAD
I see Carnage has the SE blocker now so that point is moot. I believe Artimeus agreed to let them have if [sic] when I was talking to him on Wed [31/10]. I'm sure I'll catch up on more when I get to work in the morning.
Grim
So, on the 28th October Grim told Galadriel to try for peace, and Galadriel told the whole KD (on the forums) what was happening. On the 31st October, a day after Galadriel delivered a formal NAP offer, Arteimeus offered the blocker to Carnage. This was never mentioned on the forums, but was agreed with Grim on the Wednesday. Only, he didn't bother to tell Galadriel until two days later, well after the NAP had been offered in her name.
Clear, total and deliberate betrayal of Galadriel and BoW by the PKS King and same-office-club. Not what the Peacekeepers name was built on.
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Donut, the messages written by Grim were written in November. According to those messages, he contacted G before the blocker was handed over by Artimeus. Also as implied in his message, "I cant really tell Carnage no at this time", agreements were almost signed before the BOW talks took place.
So in other words, - PKS started talking to Carnage about blocker, deal basically signed
- PKS then contacted BOW
- PKS can't go back on word to Carnage and is unable to get into relations with BOW
- Carnage occupies blocker as agreed, relations with BOW fall apart
Can't see what was so bad about that... If you really want to think badly of the PKS leadership call it a communication issue due to RL, and ingame stress limiting their activity.
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Lord G, it's traditional in this country for the 1st of November to follow about 4 days after the 28th October.
So, Grim tells Galadriel to post on the 28th October, and she does, which lets the whole KD know that we're trying for peace.
She sends Drakos the NAP offer (still) in October, on the 30th.
A day after that, on the 31st (that would be the "wednesday" that Grim mentions in his message later), Artimeus agrees to hand over the blocker. Grim also knows that he has, but no-one tells Galadriel - who has been talking peace for 3 days with Grim's blessing. They also don't mention it at all on the forums, so no-one else knows either.
A day AFTER that - by which time you're quite right, it's November - Grim tells Galadriel that the blocker's been offered and confirms that it was offered on the Wednesday, two days after he told her to seek peace.
And you still can't see the problem?
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I think we're all clear on what the problem is and was and thankfully Grim has gotten rid of it =)
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Is it really a month since your last hormonal outburst Ms Q?
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As Lord Guderian has said it seems very obvious that PKS had talks of giving the blocker to Carnage before the NAP talks and it was just never finalized untill after the talks went through.
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So you sent Galadriel out to talk peace without telling her, using her word (and my word as backing) because no-one in BoW would trust you guys already?
We put our word on the line (with G posting it clearly on the forums) for a NAP offer that you're already deliberately compromising with secret, off-forum, deals?
Did it not occur to you that might have been a little, err, dishonest towards your own KD members, let alone BoW?
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You missed my point with November Donut. My point was that Grim contacted Carnage before the deal with BOW was even in talks. Then as he does not wish to fight BOW, he asks G and yourself to contact them regarding the NAP. Meanwhile talks between Artimeus and Carnage continued regarding the blocker. Now on October the 31st Grim finds out regarding the continued talks. Maybe he is at work or forgets about it. The following day he contacts G then later Carnage took the blocker.
Like I said before, this issue has nothing to do with honourable, or dishonourable behaviour. It is simply a communication error.
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You also miss my point Lord G. If the talks with Carnage WERE happening before he asked Lady G to use her good name to try for a NAP, don't you think he should have mentioned that such a deal was being made with Carnage? By not telling here, when BoW see that town being handed over, it's Galadriel's word that's put into question with them. As I've repeatedly pointed out, BoW were not interested in talking with other members of PKS because they only trusted Galadriel and me. Whether Grim did that deliberately or by carelessness doesn't really matter from the point of view of Galadriel and my reputation for honesty.
Also, a deal that hands over access through one of our towns is the sort of thing that really should have been posted on the PKS site so that other members wouldn't think the NAP with Carnage had failed when they attacked it. That's such basic stuff that they have no excuse if they claim to be a "good" KD! So why was it kept secret unless they specifically didn't want their peace envoys to know?
I really don't know why you're still trying to defend them, Mac.
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If we move
east with the agreement of a neutral stance i don't see a problem, if
Carnage attack them or they attack Carnage it will not part of the
agreement between PKS and BoW. An agreement with BoW for a neutral
agreement will leave PKS free to pass through their territory to attack
Legacy and Phi, if Carnage wanted the same i think they would they
would need to broach it with Drakos.
If
this is type o*beep*reement is ok with you i will open discussion with
him but also mention to him that i will have to open it up for kingdom
discussion, which is also the way BoW works
Galadriel
Sir Grim Darkhammer [PKS] (10/28/2007 4:51:58 PM) GOOD BAD
That would be fine with me and you can post our conversation in the forum so everyone knows my stance on the matter.
Grim
And then we from Bow get attacked by Pks when we tried to move to Carnage through Pks terretorry....
Oh I forget the 8h warning rofl (not every1 has time to spent every 5h on the pc dude)....
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I think most of the ones posting here, fail to see the point.
IF Lady G KNEW that there were talks in progress with Carnage, she would never have tried to get a deal with BOW in the first place.
And it has been pointed out several times, that the talks with carnage had startet long before the ones with BOW. Now doesn't that mean that they DID NOT inform Lady G? even tho they had been talking with carnage for several days.
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- Prior to the 26th: Talks with Carnage regarding blocker take place, deal almost signed.
- Oct 26th: D and G return to the PKS
- Oct 28th: G is asked to open talks with BOW regarding a NAP to ensure that peace can be reached.
First of all, Donut; Galadriel and yourself had no clue as to what was going on with the blocker so your reputation should not be affected. Also, as Grim pointed out in a post, the blocker was undefended and would have easily been taken by BOW so to ensure that the side they were allied with got it, they allowed Carnage to take it. As PKS already had a NAP with Carnage the same amount of troops would be coming towards BOW from Carnage, but to ensure his KD safety while talks were in progress with BOW he gave Carnage the blocker. I don't see any dishonour in that, do you?
Despite the blocker issue, Grim wished to make sure of his relations with BOW, so he contacted Galadriel. He wanted to re-establish peace so he saw the best way to do this and did so. I believe that somewhere in there someone failed to communicate to G that the blocker was being handed over. The other vices had been working together for a while and now they were making adjustments and trying to get G and D up to date. If this was the case, as I believe it probably was, the blocker got overlooked as it was basically said and done already. Thus because of communication problems, a mountain was made out of a molehill. If you seriously think that Grim and his vices intended to use your reputation and G's reputation for his own ends, then one of the two of us does not know Grim very well.
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Lord G,
Not too sure why you're now the official PKS defender, but.....
Whatever the reasons for it happening, without a clear and public
statement from the top of PKS that it was a fcuk up by them, not by
Galadriel, there is no way that BoW should just believe her saying "I
didn't know". Even after admitting it had been handled badly on forum,
no-one offered to set the record straight to protect her name.
As for communication, handing a town over to a NAPd KD is a pretty
important thing for all members to know about, so they know there isn't
a NAP break going on. I know you've been there, because you were a member, but for those reading who didn't realise, PKS had a full forum site, with nice clearly labelled sections, for little details like this to be mentioned on. I know about it because I bought the webspace and domain to run it from (including renewing it at the start of Nov), and set it up for them.
Galadriel used it to announce the NAP terms - surely an existing Viceroy should have seen that post and thought "Oh, that blocker I'm working on might make a difference there". So, did they not think, or did they think and then think "stuff it, it's her word on the line, not mine"? I know which my money's on ;-)
Also, "prior to 26th deal is almost signed" is pure speculation - the only evidence we've ever been shown is Grim's message that it was agreed on the 31st. Surely if it was "almost signed" way before that someone involved would have explained that to us and shown us the evidence by now?
Mind you, given their comlete incompetence in clearing us out (3 members inside an area that I even told them how to defend after the fcuk up with another army earlier in the era) and their need to call DB in to help* perhaps it was just total incompetence. Either way, it shows that PKS is nothing like the KD it once was ;-)
* See Mr Shyer's Lollipop Kids that came through one of their blockers, killed one of my armies that was frozen, then left the way it came
and the towns that DB have come in to take off us and are now letting PKS take from them. Surely a 23 member KD at 1900% of our strength should be able to take them directly? I didn't believe it when I returned and people were accusing PKS of riding the shirt-tails of their big friends, but seems they were right after all ;-)
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Next time someone personal life is brought into a kingdom related argument, for whatever reason the post will not only be deleted but the person will receive a forum ban. That was completely uncalled for Hagar, don't let it happen again!
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I did not bring up her personal life she brought it up i only posted what they sent to me and tried to show that i was trying to talk reason with them and they would not listen. It had nothing to do with their personal life but she kept putting that into the messages she sent like i was attacking her personal life and i was not.
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"Not too sure why you're now the official PKS defender, but....." to paraphrase a novel I am fairly sure you will recognize: "There are some men who are born to do our unpleasant jobs for us." So I merely saw this one, and being ex-PKS wanted to sort it out :) I doubt many people from the old VU days would doubt G's word on any issue. If BOW would do so than they are getting too new. I don't agree with the way PKS didn't come and apologize. I think that an apology regarding that would probably be appropriate, but will likely come when other issues are sorted out. The blocker was not an enourmous issue that needed to be posted. The leadership was busy trying to secure their borders, sort out relations, and get the rest of the kd up to date on those issues. So the blocker getting posted got "lost in translation". The vices voted and agreed that giving it to Carnage was the best thing to do, but then got busy with the incidents that followed. Galadriel sent the NAP on the 28th. Add RL, other issues, and the time difference between Europe and NA and you've got a reason as to why she didn't find out until the 30th. Sorry D, but it is not pure speculation. According to my discussion with the PKS leadership Artimeus began his discussions with Carnage before you came back. (I do not have messages to paste, but once I get them I will post them). Like I said, once I get more details I will post them. If you want to discuss any of these points while we wait, I will as well as adding the facts while I get them.
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Hagar, you're making as many excuses as we'd expect from a member of PKS. What she told you was in confidence, to explain why she hadn't been talking (typing) much to you. Posting those bits on here was out of order, and would only have taken a little edit of the messages to avoid.
Sir S, any chance of removing the last few posts again and locking this thread? Otherwise I might be a little more forthright in my comments.
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so wait....you are free to talk about my hormones and that isnt something personal? again.....you talk out both sides of your mouth
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Please don't lock this yet Scientist. I wish to finish this discussion and get everyone happy again.
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Q, in case you didn't catch it, that was a jibe about the tone of your post. I have no factual knowledge of your hormones and if I did, I wouldn't post it. If you can't see the difference you obviously spend so much time on here that your lines of reality are getting blurred.
Lord G, do as you wish - I won't be participating any more other than to observe that if one of the more decent PKS members can breach real life trust like happened earlier, nothing you can say will ever convince me they deserve in-game trust.
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