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Ben Stein CBS interview
00:14:36 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Arthion:

  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.


My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish.
  And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees Christmas trees. I don't feel threatened. I don't feel discriminated against. That's what they are:   Christmas trees.

It doesn't bother me a bit when people say, "Merry Christmas"
to me. I don't think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto. In fact, I kind of like it. It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn't bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu . If people want a crche, it's just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away .

I don't like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don't think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians. I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed
around, period. I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country. I can't find it in the Constitution and I don't like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from
that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?   I guess that's a sign that I'm getting old, too.   But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke; it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking.


Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding Katrina)
  Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response.
She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are,
but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.   And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school
shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.  Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little
personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience,
why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE
SOW."
Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell.
  Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says .  Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?





00:20:22 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Prince of Darkness:

No Comment .........

thanx for the info's


00:21:36 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Arthion:

Its too true though


00:27:54 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Prince of Darkness:

yea but i hated when he thinks friends take it seriously between each others

i mean when i was fasting ramdan the christions in my school eated without let us feel hungry , i respected that alot


00:31:46 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Arthion:

A school in California allows muslims at the school to miss class so they can pray when they need to, but the Christians students aren't allowed to pray or bring a bible to school. This is just one example of what hes talking about.


00:45:12 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Prince of Darkness:

lol , how stupid ? increases our faith just so they think we miss a class

and decreases their faith just to hear a boring teacher . i can't pray in my school , it follows the old britich colony base , it's a cathidral and a long story


00:51:38 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Abu Yusef:

do jews confiss to a hakham ??? like christions


00:52:44 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Prince of Darkness:

idk , but ther is jews more on our land than us , pick one and ask him .


01:03:58 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Ignorentia:

he's mixing up moral and religion ... two quite different things


02:20:59 Oct 21st 07 - Lady Lacewing:

I agree with Ignorentia.  God is not the only moral way of life.  And every generation says the world is going to hell, it seems, at some point or other, because it's hard for some people to understand that the world is constantly changing.

As for this statement:

"Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace"

 

I think this is just plain dumb... why not say "Funny how lewd, crude vulgar and obscene articles is suppressed in the school and workplace, but public discussion of God pass freely through cyberspace?"  It's contrasting two unlike things.

 

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.  Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Bad things always have happened.  Exactly what the bad things are may change, or what they're called, or what is simply brought to attention.


04:31:29 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Arthion:

Just imagine the stereotypical colonial times school with God as the center of its education. There was much less violence and shootings and problems in those schools compared to our schools today without God in it.


04:57:39 Oct 21st 07 - Lady Lacewing:

Yes, but you couldn't really conceal a rifle in your pocket back then either.  And the pistols were expensive, and inaccurate.  Thus, how can you prove there is a correlation between violence and God, when there is another correlation between violence and technology?


05:28:44 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Arthion:

violence doesn't have to be with  just guns...It could be with words, fists, knives(would have easily been concealed), but the Schools of that day had no such problems.


06:14:57 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Xiax:

I'm not exactly sure if people back then even cared that much if the kids fought each other, probably thought it built character.


08:37:21 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Titty Titty Bang Bang:

Religion is the major causer of war in history (besides perhaps overpopulation).
I'd say the bad points of religion outweigh the good.


09:30:22 Oct 21st 07 - Prince Lucias Septim II:

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?


20:15:26 Oct 21st 07 - Lady Lacewing:

"but the Schools of that day had no such problems."

Oh really?  Can you prove this?  Xiax brings up a good point, in previous points in history violence was ignored, or often even expected.  It may only be now that society doesn't want violence in schools that violence because noted.

"I'd say the bad points of religion outweigh the good."

In a highly subjective and opionated manner, sure.


21:57:54 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Sun:

and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?

??? you can be entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.

She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.   And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

im sorry, there are other beliefs too. one can argue with the same logic against it.

what a load of crap. way too biased and subjective.


22:07:39 Oct 21st 07 - Mr. Sun:

"I'd say the bad points of religion outweigh the good."

In a highly subjective and opionated manner, sure.

_______________________________________

There are insane amount of evidence in history to suggest that claim.



22:09:11 Oct 21st 07 - General Ezatious:

You should read some richard dawkins :)


02:41:46 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Arthion:

"what a load of crap. way too biased and subjective."

so just because what he believes is not what you believe that makes it biased, and discredits whatever he says.

I could use the same on you for I think what you are saying is biased so therefor its a load of crap.


03:11:46 Oct 22nd 07 - Sir Patton:

I'm going to give Ben Stein a total right-on, however I won't debate religion and morality with alot of folks whose minds wouldn't be open to it in the first place.


04:19:56 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Arthion:

Those who pull out the biased card are, as Patton said, not open to ideas other than theirs making themselves the biased ones. I will hear others ideas and beliefs and then debate them but I won't call them biased and dismiss what they say, because I respect there beliefs even if I don't agree with them.


05:47:42 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Soccerfreedom:

Sir Patton

Report


10/21/2007 7:11:46 PM
I'm going to give Ben Stein a total right-on, however I won't debate religion and morality with alot of folks whose minds wouldn't be open to it in the first place

 

fizban, u made me very happy with this statement. you are my hero! (not just cuz u could kick anyone's @ss in this game either ;))

 

this ben stein guy makes great points. im very intrigued by him!


15:30:35 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Sun:

Mr. Arthion

Report


10/21/2007 10:19:56 PM
Those who pull out the biased card are, as Patton said, not open to ideas other than theirs making themselves the biased ones. I will hear others ideas and beliefs and then debate them but I won't call them biased

 

Yet all Ben Stein's points are subjective vague points with no evidence and clear justification to support his statements. I go by reasons. From his view, he is talking negatively of  "taking our prayers from school", but nobody is saying "remove catholic schools". You need to take into great consideration that public schools do not only have christians.

Point out what I said that suggested I discriminated against people with beliefs in religion. I am open to all ideas. You can believe in whatever you believe in at the right place. I do not force you not to believe in God, nor shall it be mandatory to pray in public school.


15:52:36 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Arthion:

"A school in California allows muslims at the school to miss class so they can pray when they need to, but the Christians students aren't allowed to pray or bring a bible to school."

This is his point, that while Christianity is getting pushed away and rejected other religions like Islam are becoming excepted. Christianity was pushed out so people wouldn't be offended but now they are letting Islam in....does that sound fair?


15:53:15 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Sun:

Mr. Arthion

Report


10/21/2007 8:41:46 PM
"what a load of crap. way too biased and subjective."

so just because what he believes is not what you believe that makes it biased, and discredits whatever he says.

I could use the same on you for I think what you are saying is biased so therefor its a load of crap.

 

I did not attempt to stop him from his belief in religion.

Mr. Sun


10/21/2007 3:57:54 PM
and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?

??? you can be entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.

I put up a warning sign here as he is throwing out bs in the name of God.

Where it the world did he pull that one from? He can worship God in anyway he tries to understand him. He is manipulating the words as if atheists are the culprits.


15:53:53 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Sun:

Mr. Arthion

Report


10/22/2007 9:52:36 AM
"A school in California allows muslims at the school to miss class so they can pray when they need to, but the Christians students aren't allowed to pray or bring a bible to school."

This is his point, that while Christianity is getting pushed away and rejected other religions like Islam are becoming excepted. Christianity was pushed out so people wouldn't be offended but now they are letting Islam in....does that sound fair?

 

perhaps it is a Muslim school? Quote the full story.

And why is it not fair? Why does everyone have to believe in Christianity?

If it was a public school with no religion founded on it, then i would say its a problem to allow muslim students to pray while not allowing christians to pray on their own time. But if its a Muslim religion school, then there is no problem, you dont go knock on other religion's door and do your own religion.

So the full story is needed.


16:01:38 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Arthion:

"perhaps it is a Muslim school? Quote the full story."

It was not a muslim school
the muslim students were allowed to miss class to pray when they needed. But the Christian students weren't allowed to pray in there free time because it might offend people.....like I said before does this sound fair?


16:03:35 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Arthion:

s.d. elementary at center of dispute

union-tribune staff writer
july 2, 2007
a san diego public school has become part of a national debate over religion in schools ever since a substitute teacher publicly condemned an arabic language program that gives muslim students time for prayer during school hours.

carver elementary in oak park added arabic to its curriculum in september when it suddenly absorbed more than 100 students from a defunct charter school that had served mostly somali muslims.

overview

background: the u.s. department of education's guidelines say students can pray at public schools during school hours by themselves or with fellow students. however, šteachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the bible or other religious activities.

what's happening: a substitute teacher claimed that carver elementary school in san diego was indoctrinating students into islam, and that a teacher's aide led muslim children in prayer. an investigation failed to substantiate the claims, but the allegations have thrust carver into a nationwide debate over prayer in schools.

the future: carver, which has set aside a 15-minute break to allow time for students to pray, is considering alternative prayer accommodations. religious and civil rights groups are monitoring developments.

after subbing at carver, the teacher claimed that religious indoctrination was taking place and said that a school aide had led muslim students in prayer.

an investigation by the san diego unified school district failed to substantiate the allegations. but critics continue to assail carver for providing a 15-minute break in the classroom each afternoon to accommodate muslim students who wish to pray. (those who don't pray can read or write during that non-instructional time.)

some say the arrangement at carver constitutes special treatment for a specific religion that is not extended to other faiths. others believe it crosses the line into endorsement of religion.

supporters of carver say such an accommodation is legal, if not mandatory, under the law. they note the district and others have been sued for not accommodating religious needs on the same level as non-religious needs, such as a medical appointment.

islam requires its adherents to pray at prescribed times, one of which falls during the school day.

while some parents say they care more about their children's education than a debate about religious freedom, the allegations – made at a school board meeting in april – have made carver the subject of heated discussions on conservative talk radio. district officials have been besieged by letters and phone calls, some laced with invective.

the issue has drawn the attention of national groups concerned about civil rights and religious liberty. the council on american-islamic relations, anti-defamation league, american civil liberties union and the pacific justice institute are some of the groups monitoring developments in california's second-largest school district.

among the critics is richard thompson, president and chief counsel with the nonprofit, michigan-based thomas more law center devoted to “defending the religious freedom of christians.”


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he said he's “against double standards being used,” such as when there is a specific period for muslim students to pray and not a similar arrangement for christians.

carver's supporters noted that christianity and other religions, unlike islam, do not require their followers to pray at specific times that fall within school hours, when children by law must be in school. amid the controversy, the district is studying alternatives to the break to accommodate student prayer.

capitalizing on what it considers a precedent-setting opportunity created by the carver situation, the sacramento-based pacific justice institute has offered to help craft a districtwide “daily prayer time policy.”

in a letter, the religious-rights organization urged the district to broaden its accommodations to christians and jews by setting aside separate classrooms for daily prayer and to permit rabbis, priests and other religious figures to lead children in worship on campuses.

a lawyer representing the district said those ideas would violate the constitution's prohibition against government establishment of religion.

the uproar over carver comes as schools across the country grapple with how to accommodate growing muslim populations. in recent weeks, the university of michigan's dearborn campus has been divided over using student fees to install foot-washing stations on campus to make it easier for muslim students to cleanse themselves before prayer.

“these things are surfacing more and more in many places where large communities of muslims are coming in and trying to say this is our right,” said antoine mefleh, a non-muslim who is an arabic language instructor with the minneapolis public schools.

his school allows muslim students to organize an hour of prayer on fridays – muslims typically have friday congregational prayers – and make up class work they miss as a result. during the rest of the week, students pray during lunch or recess.

the san diego chapter of the council on american-islamic relations supports the carver program.

“our country is transforming demographically, religiously,” said edgar hopida, the chapter's public relations director. “our country has to now accommodate things that are not traditionally accounted for before.”

carol clipper, who is the guardian of two grandchildren enrolled in the school's arabic program, said she believes students should be “given the freedom” to pray. clipper is christian, and her grandchildren are being raised in both islam and christianity.

“i take them to the mosque and they go to church with me,” she said.

another parent, tony peregrino, whose son is not in the arabic program, said he's ok with the muslim students praying. what he cares about, he said, is that teachers are doing their job, and his son's education is not affected.

courts have ruled on a series of school prayer cases over the past half-century, but legal scholars say a lack of clarity remains.

“this is an area where the law is notoriously erratic,” said steven smith, a constitutional law professor at the university of san diego.

voluntary prayers by students are protected private speech, the courts have said. that means students can say grace before a meal and have bible study clubs on campus, and several san diego schools do. public school employees, however, cannot lead children in prayer on campus.

students also can be excused for religious holidays, such as yom kippur, the jewish day of atonement, and good friday during holy week.

the federal equal access act requires that extracurricular school clubs, religious and non-religious, be treated equally.

san diego unified was sued in 1993 when it denied a university city high school student's request to hold lunchtime bible fellowship. the court found the district discriminated against religion, because it allowed secular clubs to meet during lunch.

brent north, a lawyer retained by the district to address concerns related to the carver program, said the district learned from the university city high case to be “careful about restricting students' right to their own private religious expression, including when it's on campus.”

the district cites department of education guidelines on prayer:

“where school officials have a practice of excusing students from class on the basis of parents' requests for accommodation of non-religious needs, religiously motivated requests for excusal may not be accorded less favorable treatment.”

the midday prayer for muslims here generally falls between 1 and 2 p.m., north said, and that is before the school day ends.

“what is unique about this request is the specificity of the religious requirement that a prayer be offered at a certain time on the clock,” he said.

north went on to say, “the district's legal obligation in response to a request that a prayer must be performed at a particular time is to treat that request the same as it would treat a student's request to receive an insulin shot at a particular time.”

mefleh, the minneapolis arabic instructor, said he allows his muslim students to pray at the end of class during the monthlong observance of ramadan, islam's holiest period.

“some accommodation has to come from both sides,” he said. “i just tell them prayer is good. class is good, too. your time is precious. you have to come to an agreement with them without making a big fuss. if you want to pray, i understand, but i don't want to interrupt the class too much.”


16:23:19 Oct 22nd 07 - Lady Lacewing:

"Religion is the major causer of war in history (besides perhaps overpopulation)."

I would have to disagree, I would think the real cause is really land and money.  Religion then becomes a mask afterward as some kind of twisted moral justification, because Christianity in its pure form does declare "thou shalt not kill."

"Where it the world did he pull that one from? He can worship God in anyway he tries to understand him. He is manipulating the words as if atheists are the culprits."

I agree with this.  The only way Stein's speech truly applies to Christians who are complaining about the modern state of the world, but the article is directed at the general population and comes out accusingly at athiestic people, or even those who wish to keep religion and politics/education seperate.  "Sowing" the values of god is not "reaping" hell on earth, yet Stein seems to indicate so.

"But if its a Muslim religion school, then there is no problem"

I highly doubt there'd be an article in muslim students praying in a muslim school.  Or even in a private school.  It's not newsworthy.


16:25:36 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Dragonfly:

hes distanceing himseflf too much from ordinary people. acts like a perfect jew :p.
the content is probably right


17:30:01 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Sun:

Seems like it is an issue if muslim can pray at their required time, when Christians are forbidden? (I did not read anything that clearly indicated Christianity forbidden at that school, but the report did seem to hint at that)

Everything should be allowed if one thing is allowed. Muslims and christians should be treated equal.

Now on a side note, why is spaghetti monster belief considered outrageous? It is equally conceivable :) Keep that thought to oneself, and lets get back on topic. Everything must be treated fairly.


17:54:00 Oct 22nd 07 - Sir Patton:

Mr. Sun

Report


10/22/2007 11:30:01 AM

Seems like it is an issue if muslim can pray at their required time, when Christians are forbidden? (I did not read anything that clearly indicated Christianity forbidden at that school, but the report did seem to hint at that)

Everything should be allowed if one thing is allowed. Muslims and christians should be treated equal.

Now on a side note, why is spaghetti monster belief considered outrageous? It is equally conceivable :) Keep that thought to oneself, and lets get back on topic. Everything must be treated fairly.



Exactly, if things were that way, I'd have no legal grounds to complain (I might complain from a purely Christian sort of view). However, there's no such treatment here lately. If a Christian were to go to an airport and as for a small chapel to be put in there for prayers, yet they're going to put in washing places for Muslims? Heck, they're taking out Christmas trees and such (at a Jewish Rabbi's insistence, what Stein was referring to in his interview) from airport's already.


18:20:11 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Dragonfly:

well there probably are more muslims using the airport praying space then cristians thats for shure.


18:43:45 Oct 22nd 07 - Sir Patton:

Um dude, there IS NO SUCH THING as an airport praying space for Christians. Or at least no 'designated' area for it, as you can pray anywhere/anytime, etc.


19:26:27 Oct 22nd 07 - Mr. Sun:

We cannot favor one religion too much over the others in public places.

But it always happen anyway in the world. One must ask for a statue of Zeus or Thor with their belief too :o


00:05:14 Oct 23rd 07 - Mr. Ghoumzter:

Im sorry but its fact that atheists commit less crimes then relgious people. Religious countrys tend to be more corrupt and dishonest then the more atheistic ones, and still this *beep*er talks this *beep*?


02:04:35 Oct 23rd 07 - Lady Lacewing:

Yes, but can you prove there is a corellation between religion and crime due to religion itself?


04:40:19 Oct 23rd 07 - Mr. Arthion:

"Im sorry but its fact that atheists commit less crimes then religious people"

simply there are a lot more Christians than there are Atheists so of course the number of "Christian crimes" will be higher


15:42:45 Oct 23rd 07 - Mr. Sun:

Mr. Arthion

Report


10/22/2007 10:40:19 PM
"Im sorry but its fact that atheists commit less crimes then religious people"

simply there are a lot more Christians than there are Atheists so of course the number of "Christian crimes" will be higher

 

where are the statistics sources for both claims?

1. atheists commit less crime

2. there are more christians than atheits


20:05:36 Oct 23rd 07 - Mr. Soccerfreedom:

83% of all statistics are made up on the spot.................. :P


21:10:33 Oct 23rd 07 - Sir Patton:

Yeah, I'm wanting to see some hard numbers for this atheists commit less crimes statement.


21:32:03 Oct 23rd 07 - Mr. Soccerfreedom:

make sure its a reliable source as well!

no wikipedia!


21:42:27 Oct 23rd 07 - Mr. Ghoumzter:

No.. Lets look at the american prison population and its real population, 70% are christians 10% are atheists and agnostics and the other 20% are muslims etc.

In the prisons, the christians make up for 70% while the atheists and agnostics only are 0.4%.


21:57:31 Oct 23rd 07 - Mr. Abu Yusef:

ghouma is back - with a bang - .


22:00:54 Oct 23rd 07 - Mr. Soccerfreedom:

where did u find this data? and are u considering Jews to be Christians? where is their percentages?


22:07:43 Oct 23rd 07 - Mr. Abu Yusef:

i myself consider everything worship god , ( don't discuss , it's real )


00:14:01 Oct 24th 07 - Lady Lacewing:

Largest Religious Groups (United States)

  Christian (84.12%)
  Non-Religious (9.26%)
  Jewish (1.92%)
  Muslim (1.55%)
  Buddhist (0.91%)
  Other (2.24%)

Not surprising why a majority of inmates are Christian if you ask me.

Source:  http://www.thearda.com/internationalData/countries/country_234_1.asp


00:46:15 Oct 24th 07 - Mr. Soccerfreedom:

well done lacewing, finally some data!


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