Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Ben Stein CBS interview

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thanx for the info's

yea but i hated when he thinks friends take it seriously between each others

i mean when i was fasting ramdan the christions in my school eated without let us feel hungry , i respected that alot

lol , how stupid ? increases our faith just so they think we miss a class

and decreases their faith just to hear a boring teacher . i can't pray in my school , it follows the old britich colony base , it's a cathidral and a long story

idk , but ther is jews more on our land than us , pick one and ask him .

I agree with Ignorentia.  God is not the only moral way of life.  And every generation says the world is going to hell, it seems, at some point or other, because it's hard for some people to understand that the world is constantly changing.

As for this statement:

"Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace"

I think this is just plain dumb... why not say "Funny how lewd, crude vulgar and obscene articles is suppressed in the school and workplace, but public discussion of God pass freely through cyberspace?"  It's contrasting two unlike things.

In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.  Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school. The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Bad things always have happened.  Exactly what the bad things are may change, or what they're called, or what is simply brought to attention.

Yes, but you couldn't really conceal a rifle in your pocket back then either.  And the pistols were expensive, and inaccurate.  Thus, how can you prove there is a correlation between violence and God, when there is another correlation between violence and technology?

I'm not exactly sure if people back then even cared that much if the kids fought each other, probably thought it built character.

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

and we aren't allowed to worship God as we understand Him?

??? you can be entitled to believe whatever you want to believe.

She said, "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.   And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?"

im sorry, there are other beliefs too. one can argue with the same logic against it.

what a load of crap. way too biased and subjective.

You should read some richard dawkins :)

I'm going to give Ben Stein a total right-on, however I won't debate religion and morality with alot of folks whose minds wouldn't be open to it in the first place.

Sir Patton Report 10/21/2007 7:11:46 PM

I'm going to give Ben Stein a total right-on, however I won't debate religion and morality with alot of folks whose minds wouldn't be open to it in the first place

fizban, u made me very happy with this statement. you are my hero! (not just cuz u could kick anyone's @ss in this game either ;))

this ben stein guy makes great points. im very intrigued by him!

"A school in California allows muslims at the school to miss class so they can pray when they need to, but the Christians students aren't allowed to pray or bring a bible to school."

This is his point, that while Christianity is getting pushed away and rejected other religions like Islam are becoming excepted. Christianity was pushed out so people wouldn't be offended but now they are letting Islam in....does that sound fair?

Mr. Arthion Report 10/22/2007 9:52:36 AM

"A school in California allows muslims at the school to miss class so they can pray when they need to, but the Christians students aren't allowed to pray or bring a bible to school." This is his point, that while Christianity is getting pushed away and rejected other religions like Islam are becoming excepted. Christianity was pushed out so people wouldn't be offended but now they are letting Islam in....does that sound fair?

perhaps it is a Muslim school? Quote the full story.

And why is it not fair? Why does everyone have to believe in Christianity?

If it was a public school with no religion founded on it, then i would say its a problem to allow muslim students to pray while not allowing christians to pray on their own time. But if its a Muslim religion school, then there is no problem, you dont go knock on other religion's door and do your own religion.

So the full story is needed.

s.d. elementary at center of dispute

carver elementary in oak park added arabic to its curriculum in september when it suddenly absorbed more than 100 students from a defunct charter school that had served mostly somali muslims.

overview background: the u.s. department of education's guidelines say students can pray at public schools during school hours by themselves or with fellow students. however, šteachers and other public school officials may not lead their classes in prayer, devotional readings from the bible or other religious activities. what's happening: a substitute teacher claimed that carver elementary school in san diego was indoctrinating students into islam, and that a teacher's aide led muslim children in prayer. an investigation failed to substantiate the claims, but the allegations have thrust carver into a nationwide debate over prayer in schools. the future: carver, which has set aside a 15-minute break to allow time for students to pray, is considering alternative prayer accommodations. religious and civil rights groups are monitoring developments.

after subbing at carver, the teacher claimed that religious indoctrination was taking place and said that a school aide had led muslim students in prayer.

an investigation by the san diego unified school district failed to substantiate the allegations. but critics continue to assail carver for providing a 15-minute break in the classroom each afternoon to accommodate muslim students who wish to pray. (those who don't pray can read or write during that non-instructional time.)

some say the arrangement at carver constitutes special treatment for a specific religion that is not extended to other faiths. others believe it crosses the line into endorsement of religion.

supporters of carver say such an accommodation is legal, if not mandatory, under the law. they note the district and others have been sued for not accommodating religious needs on the same level as non-religious needs, such as a medical appointment.

islam requires its adherents to pray at prescribed times, one of which falls during the school day.

while some parents say they care more about their children's education than a debate about religious freedom, the allegations – made at a school board meeting in april – have made carver the subject of heated discussions on conservative talk radio. district officials have been besieged by letters and phone calls, some laced with invective.

the issue has drawn the attention of national groups concerned about civil rights and religious liberty. the council on american-islamic relations, anti-defamation league, american civil liberties union and the pacific justice institute are some of the groups monitoring developments in california's second-largest school district.

among the critics is richard thompson, president and chief counsel with the nonprofit, michigan-based thomas more law center devoted to “defending the religious freedom of christians.”

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carver's supporters noted that christianity and other religions, unlike islam, do not require their followers to pray at specific times that fall within school hours, when children by law must be in school. amid the controversy, the district is studying alternatives to the break to accommodate student prayer.

capitalizing on what it considers a precedent-setting opportunity created by the carver situation, the sacramento-based pacific justice institute has offered to help craft a districtwide “daily prayer time policy.”

in a letter, the religious-rights organization urged the district to broaden its accommodations to christians and jews by setting aside separate classrooms for daily prayer and to permit rabbis, priests and other religious figures to lead children in worship on campuses.

a lawyer representing the district said those ideas would violate the constitution's prohibition against government establishment of religion.

the uproar over carver comes as schools across the country grapple with how to accommodate growing muslim populations. in recent weeks, the university of michigan's dearborn campus has been divided over using student fees to install foot-washing stations on campus to make it easier for muslim students to cleanse themselves before prayer.

“these things are surfacing more and more in many places where large communities of muslims are coming in and trying to say this is our right,” said antoine mefleh, a non-muslim who is an arabic language instructor with the minneapolis public schools.

his school allows muslim students to organize an hour of prayer on fridays – muslims typically have friday congregational prayers – and make up class work they miss as a result. during the rest of the week, students pray during lunch or recess.

the san diego chapter of the council on american-islamic relations supports the carver program.

“our country is transforming demographically, religiously,” said edgar hopida, the chapter's public relations director. “our country has to now accommodate things that are not traditionally accounted for before.”

carol clipper, who is the guardian of two grandchildren enrolled in the school's arabic program, said she believes students should be “given the freedom” to pray. clipper is christian, and her grandchildren are being raised in both islam and christianity.

“i take them to the mosque and they go to church with me,” she said.

another parent, tony peregrino, whose son is not in the arabic program, said he's ok with the muslim students praying. what he cares about, he said, is that teachers are doing their job, and his son's education is not affected.

courts have ruled on a series of school prayer cases over the past half-century, but legal scholars say a lack of clarity remains.

“this is an area where the law is notoriously erratic,” said steven smith, a constitutional law professor at the university of san diego.

voluntary prayers by students are protected private speech, the courts have said. that means students can say grace before a meal and have bible study clubs on campus, and several san diego schools do. public school employees, however, cannot lead children in prayer on campus.

students also can be excused for religious holidays, such as yom kippur, the jewish day of atonement, and good friday during holy week.

the federal equal access act requires that extracurricular school clubs, religious and non-religious, be treated equally.

san diego unified was sued in 1993 when it denied a university city high school student's request to hold lunchtime bible fellowship. the court found the district discriminated against religion, because it allowed secular clubs to meet during lunch.

brent north, a lawyer retained by the district to address concerns related to the carver program, said the district learned from the university city high case to be “careful about restricting students' right to their own private religious expression, including when it's on campus.”

the district cites department of education guidelines on prayer:

“where school officials have a practice of excusing students from class on the basis of parents' requests for accommodation of non-religious needs, religiously motivated requests for excusal may not be accorded less favorable treatment.”

the midday prayer for muslims here generally falls between 1 and 2 p.m., north said, and that is before the school day ends.

“what is unique about this request is the specificity of the religious requirement that a prayer be offered at a certain time on the clock,” he said.

north went on to say, “the district's legal obligation in response to a request that a prayer must be performed at a particular time is to treat that request the same as it would treat a student's request to receive an insulin shot at a particular time.”

mefleh, the minneapolis arabic instructor, said he allows his muslim students to pray at the end of class during the monthlong observance of ramadan, islam's holiest period.

“some accommodation has to come from both sides,” he said. “i just tell them prayer is good. class is good, too. your time is precious. you have to come to an agreement with them without making a big fuss. if you want to pray, i understand, but i don't want to interrupt the class too much.”

hes distanceing himseflf too much from ordinary people. acts like a perfect jew :p.
the content is probably right

Mr. Sun

Report


10/22/2007 11:30:01 AM

Seems like it is an issue if muslim can pray at their required time, when Christians are forbidden? (I did not read anything that clearly indicated Christianity forbidden at that school, but the report did seem to hint at that)

Everything should be allowed if one thing is allowed. Muslims and christians should be treated equal.

Now on a side note, why is spaghetti monster belief considered outrageous? It is equally conceivable :) Keep that thought to oneself, and lets get back on topic. Everything must be treated fairly.

Exactly, if things were that way, I'd have no legal grounds to complain (I might complain from a purely Christian sort of view). However, there's no such treatment here lately. If a Christian were to go to an airport and as for a small chapel to be put in there for prayers, yet they're going to put in washing places for Muslims? Heck, they're taking out Christmas trees and such (at a Jewish Rabbi's insistence, what Stein was referring to in his interview) from airport's already.

Um dude, there IS NO SUCH THING as an airport praying space for Christians. Or at least no 'designated' area for it, as you can pray anywhere/anytime, etc.

Im sorry but its fact that atheists commit less crimes then relgious people. Religious countrys tend to be more corrupt and dishonest then the more atheistic ones, and still this *beep*er talks this *beep*?

"Im sorry but its fact that atheists commit less crimes then religious people"

simply there are a lot more Christians than there are Atheists so of course the number of "Christian crimes" will be higher

83% of all statistics are made up on the spot.................. :P

make sure its a reliable source as well!

no wikipedia!

ghouma is back - with a bang - .

i myself consider everything worship god , ( don't discuss , it's real )

well done lacewing, finally some data!