Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Universe Creation

"Christianity was made as a way to control the lower classes by giving the rulers a divine right to rule. What they didnt have in many of the bronze age religions."

Incorrect.  Early Christianity focused on power to the poor class, not the wealthy, and the only human with a "divine right to rule" was, at best, Jesus.  It is dark age/medieval Christianity that corrupted this original belief.

However, in the bronze age, those in charge of administering religion were usually the elite, wealthy, and powerful, such as priests or pharoes, and the common man was expected to come with tributes and sacrafices to the gods.

creationists are criminals ...  aren't they the ones that say that the earth is only 6000 years old?    

Erunion, you are pathetic, unbelievably stupid,  ...    from this point on, i will deny the holocaust.

No, there is no proof supporting god created the universe. None what so ever. Sorry you fail.

of what? oh and by the way ghoma if theres no proof for creation then theres no proof for evoluion either so u fail : ) and again cite the title of what book? i have no ideas what u uys are talking about i was saying my thing to the people after my post before so u shut up and what in the world are u talking about anyway Iron?

Alittle late but...@ET: In what way is the Catholic Church corrupt? I dislike it when my religeon is insulted by those who are ignorrant of it. If it is corrupt, then prove it (don't pull hundred yearold info out either)
note: I stopped reading the thread as soon as ET insulted my religeon, so if he appologised already or something along those lines, I am sorry.

If you want more...ask.

In recent years, the media have accused the Catholic Church of either helping the Nazis or being silent during the Holocaust. As an example, the January 26, 1998 issue of Time magazine on page 20 claims that the Catholic Church apologized for "collaborating with the Nazis during World War II." Even the new Holocaust Museum in New York unjustly criticized Pope Pius XII for being silent during World War II. The Church has recently spoken on this topic.

The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps (p. 214). Could Pius have saved more lives by speaking out more forcefully? According to Lapide, the concentration camp prisoners did not want Pius to speak out openly (p. 247). As one jurist from the Nuremberg Trials said on WNBC in New York (Feb. 28, 1964), "Any words of Pius XII, directed against a madman like Hitler, would have brought on an even worse catastrophe... [and] accelerated the massacre of Jews and priests." (Ibid.) Yet Pius was not totally silent either. Lapide notes a book by the Jewish historian, Jenoe Levai, entitled, The Church Did Not Keep Silent (p. 256). He admits that everyone, including himself, could have done more. If we condemn Pius, then justice would demand condemning everyone else. He concludes by quoting from the Talmud that "whosoever preserves one life, it is accounted to him by Scripture as if he had preserved a whole world." With this he claims that Pius XII deserves a memorial forest of 860,000 trees in the Judean hills (pp. 268-9). It should be noted that six million Jews and three million Catholics were killed in the Holocaust.

Whether or not there was a flood as chronicled in the Bible does not prove the existence of  higher being, holy trinity, Santa Claus, creator, Bruce or Evan Almighty, life force, Kali, gnosis, holy father, holy mother, guiding light, Zeus, Yahweh, Buddha, etc. (hereinafter referred to as "god").  I would refer you to a comprehensive overview of religions around the world, most of which have a flood 'myth' to remind its practitioners of the need to obey the religious elite.   Noah's flood did not necessarily occur historically, but was a metaphor showing the power of god when angered by the abuse of man's free will.  At the time that the Old Testament was being told, debated, written down, taught, and eventually canonized into the Catholic Bible, religious leaders were also political leaders (as unfortunately, some still are).  Therefore, the metaphor of man's virtual extinction at the hands of an angry god by natural forces was powerful in terms of obediance to the religion/state.  The animals were thrown into the mix as a reinforcement of man's 'ownership' over them as given by god in Genesis with the power to name them.  Just as god ruled the leaders, who ruled the populace, who ruled the animals and the fields providing sustenance and succor to man, the leaders, and ultimately, as a gift to god for his generosity in the first place. 

Boom what grounds do you have for saying there is no proof or evolution or big bang? There is proof for them, go to wikipedia.

Ironpick, what happend until Constantin legalised Christianity is not important because it didnt have an effect on the masses until then. And europe being the core of christianity, and being the only continent really characterized by Christianity makes it immportant if you want to study how Christians acted when there was no secular core to tell them whats right or wrong, when you talk to religous people and they say Christianity gives them the morals and dont think I have any caus im not religous it makes me scared of the dark. The only thing thoose people have to keep them from going on a killing spree in the local shopping mall is a made up guy in the sky?

To be honest, before met Americans on the internet I had no idea anyone could belive in God so much they didnt think evolution happen in a first world nation. Now that I have met americans that think the world cant be older then 8000 years I understand how it must have felt to talk to a hard core nazi that didnt require any proof that jews where inferior.

ok here is one knothole that if evolution could find out the awenser of theyd win and i would belive in evolution but only if they could find this awnser.........if we all evoloved by chance then how come we stopped evoluving? and how come the human body is the most complex thing on earth and people belive it was made by chance..HECK no it was not was a lab made by a tornado swirling around in a junk yard?NO IT WAS NOT it was made by human beings and it is not even as complex as a human so how can u belive that we all come to be by chance?

ok so when the human race started y didnt we evolve as soon as possible? like the other animals did....they evolved  from there baby and what u just said means nothing 0.o

oh and im not a fundalmentilst (spelled it wrong didnt i?)

ok first to dakarius. um, proof that the catholic church is corrupt. really? you need to ask that? ok should i start with the spanish inquisition or should i start with the pope declaring galileo a sinner because he said the earth revolved around the sun instead of the other way around, or maybe pastuer saying that life isn't cause by the "breath of god' as was previously beleieved, hence spontanious generation. or maybe that the catholic church decided they get to name kings as they were chosen by divine right. or how about a more recent event. was it last year when the pope released its new guidelines for women which said their place is at home with the children? or how about just 50 years ago when contraception was considered a sin and women who didn't perform their "wifely dudties" were considered sinners? how many women had children till they died because of that? or felt like horrible people when they didn't think their bodies could handle more childbirth? or how about  the fact that their new pope was a priest in germany during the holocaust (yes it did happen).

but still. it is true that the big bang theory is unproven, in fact i find it hard to beleive that at first there was nothing, not even empty space as the theory states, if there wasn't even empty space then what the hell was there? however, evolution. while not proven has quite alot of evidence supporting it, fossil evidence, of creatures actually evolving, and honestly it makes alot of sense, darwin didnt just pull the theory out of his a$$, he put alot of thought into. However why does it have to be a godless theory? why couldn't god have started the spark of life here as well as on other worlds, and let nature take it's course? he doesn't interfere with our life here (and if anybody says he does then you abviously don't pay attention to the state of our world, nor the very nature of man himself, since any god who truly touched our world surely wouldn't allow such corruption and evil to run so rampant as it does here), so why would he interefere with the natural order in which our world evolved? and to say that god made our world then made us in his image is pretty faulty on the fact that if we were truly made in his image then god is a corrupt, self-centered, greedy, viscous being, because when everything man has truly done is taken into consideration, you see that mankind in general is all of those things.

personally i feel that the creation of the universe will never truly be know. it is left to faith, maybe god had something to do with it, or maybe god did not exist untill after the universe was created, maybe there is no universe, no god no earth and instead you, and me, are all just figments of my imagination, nobody will ever be able to know for cetain, since nobody was alive way back then, and to be honest, who cares how the univers started? its here now, we are here now, lets focus on what can be known rather than millions of years before our planet was ever formed. also i do believe in god, the thought that life just happened by accident demeans us terribly, however i feel that the bibles rendition of what happened is just way too convienient, and the bible itself was written by man, translated from its original language like five times to arrive at the english form, and changed by various people and religions quite a few times (hence the new testament, which is read now, vs the old testament, the king james bible and at least 3 versions before that) to suit the desires of people in power when it was changed. so it really can only be used as a tool for learning that power leads to coruption, mankind is prone to evil, and faith is the true key to god rather than what your priest, rabbi, imam, or whatever your religious leader is, decides to be the key to connection with god. it should never be used as a guide to the history of the universe, the earth or even mankind. some things in it may be true, but most likely 90% of it is made up simply to teach us how to live, or that god is greater than all of us.

u know what hes right who cares about the way the universe was created lets just enjoy it and stop agrueing about will?

I now revise my classification of Mr. Boom Boom. He has gone from ignoramus to idjit.

y ty :) but dont call me a idojt call me crazy cause thats what i am at home : )

also, boomboom. the thing about evolution is it takes thousands of years, if you expect the the state of humans at your birth wil be different from the state of humans at your death at the age of 75 (assuming thats when you die) you would be mistaken.

evolution happens as a result of natural selection, which basically is that if a mutation occurs (which is the slightest bit different from what is considered normal), and it is more suited to the environment of the species, it can survive longer, have more children and otherwise spread its dna. however it has to do alot with the new version of the species's ability to reproduce. for instance. a man who lives longer has a greater window for reproduction, thus our life expectancy from even as far back as 1000 years ago has increased by at least 25%. if someone has children at 45 rather than the expected average of 30 his children are more likely to live so long as well, whatever the reason. also one must look at the desoreability of said change. for instance (and i hate to use this movie as an example) but look at 'Waterworld'. kevin costners character was born woth gills in a world where gills would be quite usefull to survival, but because of thos gills was deemed as a "freak" therefore no women wanting to mate with him. such evidend can be seen by looking at male birds, such as the peacok, or even those as simple as the cardinals. such male membes are dependant on having the most colorfull display to attract a mate. therefore male birds of most specieas are very colorfull, or have very musical calls, because the females chose that as the criteria for mating. the same could be said about size, and many other characteristics that are chosen by members of opposite sexes that result in the change of species.

basically dakarius is right about eveolution, and heres why. we have actually change quite alot from our ancestry on the african plains. we are less hairy, thereby making us more attractive to each other. we have developed different appearances that have been linked to our environments (black people having stayed in africa where theres more continuous exsposure to sun and heat, staying black, while white people moving to europe growing white do to the lack of sunlight and the exsposure to the colder seasons). Our life expectancies have doubled since then. we walk with a straighter posture. we are much more intelligent then homo-erectus. our head have changed shape to accomodate a larger brain. Also we have developed hundreds of different languages, which might not be seen as evolution, or a by-product of our evolving intelligence, but is in itself an evolution.

dak i have read catholic beliefs. i was raised catholic, went to bible study every wednesday, attendended church on sundays, as well as saturdays. im not ignoring what you are saying. in your respnse to me you said-@ Fireforge Did  you miss the part where I said don't pull out hundred year old info? maybe thats not the same as ignore the past, but its very close. how about you show me where it learned from its mistake? cause it seems to me it still believs that women are only capable of one purpose in life, and thats raising children and conforming to the desires of men. That their decisions are the only ones that count, or that nothing else matters except we do as they say irregaedless of what we know in our hearts is right.

as far as proof of what i say regarding arch-diosese raymond burke are concerned, i'm not gonna go looking for it just to provide you with links, anything i post will be passed off as biased. and thats fine, peoples beliefs, and faiths are so important to them that theres no shaking them once they live beyond their teen years. nobody wants to hear that the people they have followed their entire lives might be wrong or even corrupt. maybe i wasan't clear enough on what i said in my previous post. i dont necessarily beieve that the catholic people are corrupt. just the church itself, especially those in the higher levels of their hirearchy, which in itself was made by man and not god. in fact most people of the catholic faith prove to have a good bit of sympathy(proven by the fact that raymond burkes campain to defeat the said charity event failed), charity, and sometimes even a selflessness that stems from their beief of right and wrong.

 the fact is that the church itself is based on the feeling that priests and those above them are directed by god himself. such feeling is inherently incorrect, in my opinion. While i have no doubt that the average person speaks to god (which there is evidence of by studies which have been done on peoples brain activity while praying {and no i wont be posting any links to that effect to prove it}), god does not speak to man in general, and men who have been chosen for their positions by other men for their beliefs, as well as their stance on issues which are important to the men in power at the time, are followed as leaders from the fact that they speak from gods authority. like i said, the same holds true for all major religion, im not singeling out catholisism, im just pointing out the very corruptness of man himself, and the corrution that power makes within man. it just so happens that the catholic church is the greatest example of the need to controll the lives of people. its history is full of such examples and those examples continue to this day. the need to keep women as subservient to man. the need for man to do as the church itself says. the need for their beliefs, and only thier beliefs, to be considered when man makes laws, because what they say is right and no other opinion on the matter counts, all of this stems from the church itself, and the people of the faith follow, almost mindlessly, because thier leaders (who again were selected by men) say so.

one last point to add, look at this whole priest abuse scandal. were talking about the higher ups knowing these priests were abusing young boys but to this day, instead of kicking them from the priest hood, they just send them to another area, even other churches where they would work directly with young men. moving the men to other churches is the result of not wanting to look bad so desperaty they are willing to put other children in danger simply for the need to be "right"

now i think we have thouroghly hijacked this thread just for this subject so if you want to debate further, start a new thread, theres no need to argue over wether a particular religion is right here

Fireforge, I have one question. You ask why god couldnt have put a spark to the creation. I really hate this kind of question, because what do you have to support it? Why even MIX in a god? A personal god is such a *beep*ing unbelivebly stupid idea, there is nothing that points to the existance o*beep*od. Some narrowminded people say they think evolution and big bang dosnt sound "possible", even if evidence came uip against Big bang and evolution it would still not be a reason to beleive tehre is a god.

Science got not a thing to do with common sence, so when you say something cant come out of nothing it dosnt prove there is a god. And no one claims there was nothing before the big bang, what was before was a very dense lump, what we call big bang is when it exploded. Who is to say it wasnt a black hole that had just sucked in everything? We cant know. But to run to religion because you dont think its likly is a retarded thing (especially since almost all scientists accept the big bang as the most likly creation of our Universe).

Isnt it possible there is a flying spagethi monster? Isnt it possible tehre is a teapot flying around mars? I think earth was created by space monkeys, you dont belive me? Disprove me.

What do you have to SUPPORT it? If u dont have anything please belive it but *beep* and never open your mouth again about it.

No it dosnt appeasee both parties. Read what i wrote, tehre iks nothing to support gods part in anything u retard.

Be careful aetheist.....the sea otters might take over!

Mr. Dakarius

I believe in a combination of God and Science. Is it not possible god set things in motion?

"God is like that circle he dose not have a start or finish"

And how do you know that? I'd love to see proof of this.

God has always been and will always be. There was no other (according to my beliefs). It does not have to make sense  that he did what he did. Though if you apreciate what love means then it makes sense, though not logical sense. Trying to get an aetheist to believe in god is next to impossible because they always demand tangible proof when there is none.