Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Universe Creation

Iwasfrozen and dakarius, you belive in something there is no evidence for, no reason what so ever to belive in. If it makes you happy please do so. But SHUT THE *beep* UP, its enough taht you will indoctrinate your kids with it.

Dont you understand that if there is no proof about it you cant talk about it as if it was true. Thats dangerous, look at what Bush does, on a religous basis he does not have to sign the the kyoto treaty and other enviromental programs. We wont have a world to live in soon thanks to the religous nutcases in America.

that is all aetheiests all ways say

"their is now proof, you must be wrong"

tell me Ghouma can you honestly say you could go out on the street and the first dog/cat/rabbit yu see kill it?,no you couldn't tell me Ghouma why couldn't you? it is not agaist the law(after all it's just an animal) so why can't you kick it

what stops you from doing wrong Ghouma?

what is morality?

the power do avoid things you know are not right?

lol

i know what morality means

i am trying to get people to think instead of just flaming God

I'm not flaming God, that would imply God exists.

it is not because of fear of God that i do not kick animals

like you i have compasion

but what is compasion?,if we are just walking cells why do we feel compasion

i amnot a nutcase i believe the drawin thorey

but i also believe in God

God made us adapt to our enviorment,in order to make sure we would survive

if God is not real why do we feel things in our heart, how do we empower ourselves to move.

Basicly if what you say is true and this is it, why bother, is this the best we can do?

i sencierly hope not...

no that much i do not believe

i do not believe in Adam and Eve

i believe the Darwin theory

Why we have compasion I already said, we need it to work in groups. Its an evolutionary step. Why do we bother to move? Well we only live once and we want to have as good a life as possible.

You still havnt said any reason to belive in god. If it makes you feel good please do so, but dont open your mouth about it, and dont indoctrinate your kids with your belifes.

I dont think this is the best we can do, I belive in something else that I feel would make the world alot better. But we have to deal with reality, this is what we made of the world because we are not perfect.

ok now your Jhon lennon?!?

any way i can't give you proof as there is none

thats what faith is believeing in what can't be proven

it doesnt mean religious people can look down on others and tell them how stupid they are for not being able to see god does everything ;)

Iwas, what does John Lennon have to do with this? You want me to think about his song "imagine"?  Yes "faith" is beliving in something with no real ground of doing so. Thats a bad thing.

Dakarius, I never forced my belives on anyone either, but like you I discuss it with my friends. I realise this thread is about how we belive the universe was created, so I appoligise for telling you to up. I hope you see my point with it being dangerous with people who belive in something that can justify anything without proof. Thats why I ask you to shut up not because I dont want to hear it, Id love to know anyhting that support there being a god, so if there was one I wouldnt be going to hell (because of the compleetly sane thing of Justification if you care to discuss).

If someone was living a lie, would you tell them the truth?

gad dam, I think i love you bertrand. He also got a point, religous people are much more likly to vote for rightwingers (bad) then atheists.

still, nowhere i see you bring proof of GOD being wrong ... <---- you have to proove god exsists

right... ive read harry potter but i dont belive in wizards.

hes rught u know... : (

I am more than willing to listen to your arguments, in fact I enjoy seeing the various ways people justify their beliefs. If you are pursuasive enough and support with enough evidence you can convince me of anything but the fact that there is no God. That is the one thing in which my belief will not change.
btw there is no need to convince me of the major theories such as evolution and the big bang since I already believe in them (though I still have some reservations over the big bang)

man made god to answer his questions

he is childish, shallow and jealous but sometimes loving

theres no such thing as good or bad, thats down to perspective and morality, but basing god on his own 10 commandments i wouldn't say hes the greatest role model.

the concept of good and evil is made by man, animals do not share this aspect at all, maybe we are to insecure for our own good.

depends what type of theist you are, mutiple gods is more logical than one all omnipotent god, but still not believable.

omnipotency suggests they will know every act that will ever take place, so they "created" with that in  mind, even if god couldn't affect our lifes now he already has done so by allowing us to be born....thus throwing free will out of the window.

im not sure on your last question... i assume you talk about being judged? heaven and hell, again if you believe in it sure, but for me this is a very big ethical and moral problem, to do be a good person purely based on the fact that there is a god, and if you don't you go to hell, that i feel is wrong......people should do the right thing regardless of the consequences of themselves.....

i have never forced anyone to believe in God.

ghouma-i 'bring god into the mix', becuse i have a personal belief that there is a god. so when i look at how life likely started, rather than just saying it started millions of years ago from random chance, that perhaps god started it and allowed us to evolve in whatever way worked for us. you say there is no proof that god exists and that is fine if you want to believe that. however there is no proof that he doesnt exist either so to call me stupid, which you did by saying, and i quote you, "a personal god is such an unbeleivably stupid blanking idea", or anybody else such, just because they dont believe the way you do about something that isnt proven either way is arrogant. also what do you actually know about the big bang theory? when i was in school (about 13 years ago) it did state that before the universe existed there was nothing not even empty space, that is the part i have a problem with. im ot saying that it is impossible there was a black hole that containrd everything, in fact that is actually basically what i believe, but the actuall theroy doesnt say that, it says there was nothingat all. and i didnt turn to religion because it was unlikely, in fact i dont believe anybody here including myself said the big bang couldnt happen, nor did i say it happened because of god, what i asked was merely for conjecture, read it all before calling me a retard please. 

 and to osiris-religious people looking down on atheists is wrong, theres no denying that, but atheists looking down on the religious is just as wrong.

on another note-It is true that there is no evidence that god exists. sometimes one must simply have faith, many of us have faith that our. is faith a bad thing? no i say. faith in itself is not wrong, after all there is no proof that god doesn't exist either so belief that he doesnt stems from faith that he doesnt, of faith that man, in his current state is capable of proving or disproving anything, and to stand here and call anybody who does have faith an *beep*, or stupid is just wrongheaded and slightly contradictory, to the point that it competes with the catholic churches arrogance at believing it is right because god says so. maybe there are lots of fools who take what priests say as fact, and those people are definitly sad individuals, however whats equally sad is to believe only what man himself can prove to be credible. honestly, we cant prove that the other planets in our solar system are actually planets, all we see is light, we have never actually gone there, except maybe mars, so we take on faith that the glowing circles in space are other planets and stars. im not gonna sit here and say something like we exist therefore god exists, or that the bible says he does so he does, perosonally i dont give a damn what you believe in. if you want to go through life feeling that just because some scientist cant prove something then it just doesent happen, then thats your choice. however i'll point out a saying that i got from a cartoon called Boondocks. "the abscence of evidence is not the evidence of abscence" although it was used to describe the lack of evidence of WMDs in iraq (which i myself doubt there were) it is still a valid point. basically it means that just because you cannot prove that something exists does not prove that  it doesent exist. you seem to be deciding that just because we have no proof of god that there is no god. let me ask you this,  If you were charged with the task of gathering evidence that god does exist, how would you go about your task? or how about if you were trying to get proof that he doesnt exist, how would you do that? lats face it there is no way for us too proove he exists nor any way for us to proove he doesent exist, thus we are left with faith. maybe some people have been taught all their lives that there is a god, so they believe that there is one. personally i feel that such belief due to 'brainwashing', as people call it is wrong in its own right. one must search within himself to decide how he truly feels before making a descision, based on faith, of something that has no clear proof. However your angry insistance that there is no god, no matter what anybody else says, due to the fact that there is no evidence is a pointless argument, in fact both sides arguing about it is pointless. mans ability to comprehend existance is not infalliable,  and what you say is not nescessarily right since you personally have no evidence.

look the fact of the matter is faith in something by itself does not make you any less of a person, wether is faith that something is, or faith that something isnt, we must make our own choices in life, some are raised to believe something, so they do. creating a possibilit for disaster either way if you ask me. what people have to do is search within themselves and decide what is right themselves, as i said, i was raised a catholic, however i no longer follow such a calling as i have decided on my own that organized religion of any sort leads to trouble, and to believe what someone says to be fact, simply because they or others say so is wrong. however I do still believ in a god. to decide that just because you believe in something else, that what anybody else believes is wrong, is just as bad as the catholic church's, or any other church's indoctrination of its own people.

those fools who blow themselves up because they believe they are right are in the extreme of radical islam. any extreme is wrong, for instance the extreme of christianity allowed for them to go and kill any non christian because they aren't christian, hence the crusades. the extreme of judeaism allows people to kill any non jew for the sake of a fellow jew, examples of which are in their own holy books. the extreme of catholism led to the burning of 'witches' and the roadblocks to the success of scientific discovery in our early ages, as well as the attempt to forcibly convert non catholics, which is apparent by the spanish inquisition and the intense degredation of the christians during the dark ages. however, there is also the extreme of atheism. not believing in any higher power can lead to the breakdown in morality itself. just because you personally have morals does not mean that an entire society based on atheism would. in fact the most likely out come of a society raised to belive that there is no higher authority than man is likely to lose perception of whats right and wrong itself. if there are no consequenses to our actions other than possible consequences inflicted by man, then we are allowed to do whatever we want so long as we arent caught, and dont 'feel bad' about doing it. im not saying anybody here feels this way, im saying that taken to the extreme, an atheist, just as when taken to the extreme the other religions mentioned above, could lead to those actions i mentioned, and possibly even more.

while it is true that we do, or dont do, things based on wether or not we feel that doing something is right or wrong . the feeling that something is right or wrong comes from our upbringing. cannibles feel it is right to kill other men and eat them, because they were raised to believe that, mobsters fell it is ok to murder, and assult anybody who doesnt do as their boss says because in the environment in which they were raised, that is how the world works. ghouma said he wouldn't kill somebody because it would make him feel bad. well why would it make you feel bad? because it is wrong? because it could cause suffering in others and that is wrong? who says that killing is wrong and who says that causing others to suffer is wrong? these are all beliefs that were indocrtinated within us by upbringing. saying that it comes from evolution itself is not painting a clear picture of morality, and in fact the very idea of morality didn't really show itself in our society untill religion did, those who dont believe in god, yet still have strong morals were likey raised by parents who did believe or parents who were raised by parents who believed in god, or so on, and morality passed its way down the line to you, so wether you personally dont believe in god, your morality likey came indirectly from our societies belief in him.  

again it all comes down to personal, choice, belief and faith, even the atheists are going on the belief, and faith, that there is no god, so maybe the people on both sides of the argument should stop proclaiming their rightness, and let us all choose our own beliefs, even if you feel they are wrong, because you truly cannot know.

"you say there is no proof that god exists and that is fine if you want to believe that. however there is no proof that he doesnt exist either"

Please READ my posts, it settles this exact issue. Just because there is no proof that disproves the existence of God does not mean that God exists. There are a great many things that don't exist and yet we can't prove they don't exist.

"also what do you actually know about the big bang theory? when i was in school (about 13 years ago) it did state that before the universe existed there was nothing not even empty space, that is the part i have a problem with. im ot saying that it is impossible there was a black hole that containrd everything, in fact that is actually basically what i believe, but the actuall theroy doesnt say that, it says there was nothingat all."

Actually If you read some of the links I posted on the first page of this thread you would have found out that the Theory has evolved since the 'there was nothing phase'. Actually saying that there was nothing is still correct in the sense that the universe itself didn't exist so there was nothing in it, since it didn't exist.

The dominant theory at this time is the multiverse.

EDIT: I'd reply to the rest of your post, but your wall of text make it very unreadable.

suprcali- most my post was similar to yours, theres no doubt. it was more aimed at people who called people of faith stupid for having faith.

as far as the multiverse theory, it isnt so much about how the universe was created but what happend when it, and howevermany others were created at conception. it still boils down to big bang. and as i said, what i know of it is from when i was in school, i never learned anything new on the subject. moreover, again, i never said it to be impossible, i just find the fact that there was absloutely nothing, then just something, a little bit much. where did the something come from if there was nothing? and how did it come to be?

it is too easy to say, that what we can't understand, is done by a god ...

and bertrand, its equally too easy to say that just because theres no tangible evidence that there is god then there must not be none, its all talking in circles about unanswerable questions

What is it so hard to understand? In that 'quantum foam' there are energy fluctuations, which create the Big Bang of that universe. If the energy fluctuations are small it will create a short lived universe that will contract back into a 'Big Crunch'. If however the fluctuations have enough energy it will create an inflationary universe(like our). That won't contract into a 'Big Crunch', but keep expending at an even faster rate than at the start.