Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Universe Creation

"What do you have to SUPPORT it? If u dont have anything please belive it but *beep* and never open your mouth again about it."

Do you believe yourself to be enlightened?  Sounds like you believe in censorship.  Not that much different than how Christians censored other cultures and religions and anti-Christian ideals.

"Another thing, you think it demeans humans not being created by god? Why do you have such an urge to be more then just a body? Are you really that special that you think its demeaning not to be a divine creation? Holy *beep*, look at our bloody history, at our infair society, how we treat other animals, how we destroy the planet."

Not a lot of animals send food and aid halfway across the world to complete strangers either, or develop medicines to allow people to suffer less and live longer.

"The burden of proof rests on those people that believe in God."

Lol.  Burden of proof is a human concept.  It does not actually PROVE or DISPROVE whether something exists in a truly objective sense.

who knows bertrand? and does it really matter anyway? like i have always said, if you want to believe there is no god thats fine. my point has always been that there is no proof of god either way so it comes down to a matter of faith. Either faith that there is a god, or faith that there isn't. to sit here and argue either side is a waste of time and will only lead to peoples angry lashings out as is proven by looking at the posts on bothe sides of the discussion, and the insultd fung from both sides. might as well let it drop, supercali has basically brought this thread back to the topic which it is inherently about and id rather it stay there. after its about the creation of the universe, not the existance of god.

ah but it does take faith to not believ in god because to not believe in god is to believe there is no god, and there is no evidence that there isnt one, therefore it is still a matter of faith, and if you want to go back to the spaghetti monster thats fine, because im willing to admit that it is possible there is such however since there is no evidence that there is and no evidence that there isnt, i choose not to believe it and thats my choice, one made by faith and not evidence.

how about you tell me how reason and logic state that there is no god, since we are no longer talking about the creation of the universe?

"ah but it does take faith to not believ in god because to not believe in god is to believe there is no god"

To not believe in god does indeed mean to believe there is no god.(truism if I ever saw one). However It does not take faith to believe there is no god, like it said, all you need is reason and logic. God is not logical and as such if you were to use logic on god you would get that he doesn't exist, or to be more exact, the chance of him existing is infinitely small, since you so love your inverted argument about lack of evidence that God doesn't exist.

"Wanna here something funny?
If you believe in God and God exists you go to heaven (assuming you have met the criteria)
If you belive in God and God doesn't exist you die and are gone
If you don't believe in God and God doesn't exist you die and are gone
If you don't believe in God and God exists you are probably screwed
Seems to me, the believers have the better deal."

How about this:

If a person doesn't believe in god and god doesn't exist he doesn't lose his life in needless worshiping a god.
If a person doesn't believe in god and yet god does exist and we accept the fact that we are made in god's image and we also accept the fact that humans are logical creatures we can expect that god is a logical creature also. As such he will understand why I couldn't believe in him without proof.

EDIT:

"Cobra, logic is not the only form of thinking out there ;)"

Oh? Do you live your life by logical thinking or by some other form of thinking?

"If you ever read scripture you would know why that wouldn't work ;)"

Sorry I don't waste time on useless, man made, biased reading material that presents itself as the word of God.

God is not a logical "creature" God is not a creature at all !!

futhermore God is not logical he dose not think the way we think e.g if you created humans ans they turned around and began killing each other and saying you don't exist and wanting proof, would you kill them yes,dose God kill us no way not? that is the mistery.

"God is not a logical "creature" God is not a creature at all !!"

Creature, entity, whatever.

"futhermore God is not logical he dose not think the way we think e.g if you created humans ans they turned around and began killing each other and saying you don't exist and wanting proof, would you kill them yes,dose God kill us no way not? that is the mistery."

Ah but did god create us in his image? If yes that means that god is a logical entity, if no than why does it say he did?

having omnisciece probably leads to a slightly different thought pattern than what we have. Point of Fact, the human mind is not capable of fully understanding god, which is why we have the mysteries.

edit: people who believe in god believe they have a soul (which is the most likely case of "in his image"

"having omnisciece probably leads to a slightly different thought pattern than what we have. Point of Fact, the human mind is not capable of fully understanding god, which is why we have the mysteries."

Would anyone like me to present my arguement on why the human is incapable of truly knowing anything at all?

Super, I would like to ask you a question.  What do you believe in?

A white racist dies and finds himself at the pearly gates. St. Peter informs him that he must go through purgatory before entering. The racist then begs St. Peter to tell him something about God. St. Peter thinks and then responds: "well, she's black"

true our soul is differnt from our body mustly as our soul is neither male nor female

when the desiples saw Jesus for the first time after his death they did not reginise him this shows us our soul is different from our bodys

 However It does not take faith to believe there is no god, like it said, all you need is reason and logic. God is not logical and as such if you were to use logic on god you would get that he doesn't exist, or to be more exact, the chance of him existing is infinitely small, since you so love your inverted argument about lack of evidence that God doesn't exist.

ok, first how can god be classified as logical or illogical? is it not illogical in itself to believe that just because you cannot prove something that that something doesnt exist or didnt happen?

and i ask again, how does using reason and logic actually disprove god?

lets not forget that when we believed the sun revolved around the earth. we saw it spinning around us, while we seemed to be standing still so logically any reasonable person would asumme it was the sun moving, not us. however this turned to be wrong once evidence showed up in the form of telescopes. basically logic and reason are not always what is right. it still boils down to faith.

als that whole we were made in god image is a belief of specific religions, a point i made in my very first post yesterday. and Dakarius, the scripture were written by specific religions. the beief in god does not need to conform to one of these religions, as i do not.

Ah, You're a deist aren't you.

ah, but you see there was no evidence then except see the sun move around us so "logically" one must conclude it revolve around us, since obtaining scientific proof without the means to would be impossible. then when it became possible to learn the truth we saw that was so obviously logical at the time was actually wrong.

it is illogical to believe in something that you cannot prove but also illogical to say that because you cannot prove something it must not exist, there is no proof either way as to wether there is a god or not, so logically one cannot state that it does or doesnt exist. and when logic fails to prove or disprove something you are left with faith, and your own personal feelings.

if its about science, how about you show me scientific proof that god does not exist?

"ah, but you see there was no evidence then except see the sun move around us so "logically" one must conclude it revolve around us, since obtaining scientific proof without the means to would be impossible. then when it became possible to learn the truth we saw that was so obviously logical at the time was actually wrong."

OK I see you fail to grasp how science works. Who was asking me why we say theists are stupid and illogical?

They had an idea, the geocentric model, they made a prediction, that the sun revolves around the earth, but they did not have the technology to prove either way so time passed until the technology was invented and the geocentric model was disproved and a new model, the heliocentric model was brought forward and with the help of the same observations that disproved the geocentric model they proved that the heliocentrict model was true.

"it is illogical to believe in something that you cannot prove but also illogical to say that because you cannot prove something it must not exist, there is no proof either way as to wether there is a god or not, so logically one cannot state that it does or doesnt exist. and when logic fails to prove or disprove something you are left with faith, and your own personal feelings."

OMG ARE YOU *beep*ING RETARDED? YOU'RE REALLY TRYING MY PATIENTS HERE. I *beep*ing said this many times the lack of proof that disproves an idea does not mean that that idea is true. THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON YOU TO PROVE.

"It can mean a lot of things to a lot of people."

I'm not asking a lot of people, I'm asking you.  What guidelines do you live by?

"It does not boil down to faith, what it boils down to is discovering the truth. That's how science works, we have an idea we use that idea to make a prediction and use observations and experiments to see if the prediction is true. If it is than idea gets more credibility if it doesn't the idea gets changed."

Is it impossible for religion to be refined, then?

"They had an idea, the geocentric model, they made a prediction, that the sun revolves around the earth, but they did not have the technology to prove either way so time passed until the technology was invented and the geocentric model was disproved and a new model, the heliocentric model was brought forward and with the help of the same observations that disproved the geocentric model they proved that the heliocentrict model was true."

Which means they did not understand the truth because they did not have the technology.

Doesn't this mean we could be lacking the technology to prove God exists?

"who created your god?"

How was the first matter, pre Big Bang, created?

How was the first matter, pre Big Bang, created?

bertrand you are just looking to lash out at somebody because they feel differently than you.

yes big bang is a theory on how the universe was created, however, there is no hard evidence supporting it as fact nor discrediting it as fiction. so theres really no saying for certain if thats how it happened. the same could be said for every single theory on how the universe was created. nobody can know. just like ironpick says how did that first matter come to exist?

as for evolution, i believe everybody on this forum who posted about it posted in its favor except boomboomjr, and that was way back on the first page, so your just flogging a dead horse on that.

how bout you tell me what facts we are denying? because even the people who say god doesnt exist have no proof of that just as we have no proof he does. you say we must prove he exists how bout you prove big bang was a fact and not a theory?

you sir sound alot like nazi germany, we are crazy ignorant sickening people you say, isnt that similar to what hitler said about the jews?

ok so where did the power come from for these power fluctuations? and is there proof that it even happened on a large enough scale to make everything at once? or that that is how our universe was created?

"ok so where did the power come from for these power fluctuations? and is there proof that it even happened on a large enough scale to make everything at once? or that that is how our universe was created?"

Do you even read my posts? Like I said regardless of how a low chance something has, given enough time that event will come to pass.

also you also said that was a relatively low chance of god, however if there is a chance at all how can you say definitively that there isnt one?

the universe wasn't made at once ... unlike what you believe it took a lot longer than 6 days.

"also you also said that was a relatively low chance of god, however if there is a chance at all how can you say definitively that there isnt one?"

regardless of how low a chance these quantum fluctuations have, the existence of God is many,many,many times lower than them. You want to know why? Because God is an complex entity, that by definition is all powerful, all knowing and omnipresent while what science is suggesting is a tool, which is MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH less complex than a god entity.

EDIT:

"so let me get this straight. we know that something can be created by nothing because of mathematics? who came up with these mathematics and how do we know it is true? there was a crackpot about 20-30 years ago who 'proved' god existed by use of a mathematical equation as well.  how bout actuall evidence of it happening, and i say deep space because where else could one prove something coming from nothing, not because i believe there would be deep space before this theory, youre just seeing what you want to why not try to reason why i would suggest it rather than calling me an *beep*, since insulting me seems to be what youre best at"

Your lack of information or even basic understand of how the natural world works is shocking, I'm done explaining high level physics and won't even start on high level mathematics, you obviously lack the ability to understand either.