Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Putin:War to promote Mckain

russia dint provoke tjetjnia couse well al quada did and we all know that are Capitalist tools :p

That's one way to say it -

Another version is - Georgia is a puppet, or pet, state with the supreme support of the US Gov for political & economical reasons (Georgia has a couple very nice oil & natural gas pipelines which are of great interest to the US).  The political reasons should be self evident... The internal conflict in Georgia does include Russian interests as the 'civil war' was between two groups within the same area that have differing ideas as to their nationality.  One tjetjnia group considered themselves Russian and the other group Georgian.

If Peurto Rico was invaded by Cuba...you bet your a$$ the US would be there in a heartbeat!

Ossetia is controlled by Georgia NOT Russia. Those areas want to "break away" from Georgia.That is a big difference.

if they follow your logic then no matter what they can never break away becouse the USA wont acknowledge them.

Russia acknowledges Ossetia just like usa acknowledges Puerto Rico. there is no difffrence.

exept for the fact you are looking at it from only one point of view.

The best comparison in this situation is Yugoslavia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_wars

Here's the article in short(part of it):
The country's tensions were exploited by the occupying Axis forces in World War II, which established a puppet-state spanning much of present day Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina
Both quislings were confronted and eventually defeated by the communist-led anti-fascist Partisan movement composed of members of all ethnic groups in the area, leading to the formation of the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.

The part we're most interested in is Conflicts in Albanian-populated areas (1996-2002).

Btw, about the 'war rape', please read carefully. All of this was REPORTED, but few of it was prooved. It was mostly an excuse by NATO to get into serbia,

doesn't give them a right to invade in their own civil affairs.
ossetia isnt part of georgia to russia its not a civil affair. and georgia has no right to attack ossetia jsut like you say abour russia.
Geogria is invadeing ossetia that mutch is for shure.(no matter where you like to draw you border lines)Russai has said it has acted under international law.(and if US media coulnt even disprove only avoid mentioning it im asumeing it is true)

It doesnt matter how Russia feels about Ossetia or how Ossetia feels about Russia it is still Georgian. 

WHY?
all i can make up is becouse you or your country says so.

while Ossentia is a Reconized territory of Georgia. Russia has zero claim to it, ZERO.
who is the one reconizing it obviously not the people of ossetia.

"doesn't give them a right to invade in their own civil affairs."

Wait, please remind me, what did the USA do in Afghanistan? Oh and Iraq?
What about Vietnam? North Korea?

Did the USA have citiziens in any of those countries? Not really.

South Ossetia has every right to declare independence, since it was basically Invaded by Georgia when it left the Soviet Union.


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Back on topic,
I'd like you people to notice how Obama dropped some 10% in votes since the South Ossetia war, whereas McCain gained.
Wether this was all planned out or not, the fact stays, this war gives favor to McCain.

The question is who's flexing muscles... looks like only NATO.

They attacked, got pwnd and their military razed (maybe Russia's flexin muscles). Now there's like 10 ships in the black sea near Russian borders, while only 1 warship from Russia near Georgia, that has already retreated.
(Btw, Russia has a nice fleet in the black sea, but for some reasons it's not showing it off like NATO is O_O)

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Back on topic,
I'd like you people to notice how Obama dropped some 10% in votes since the South Ossetia war, whereas McCain gained.  Wether this was all planned out or not, the fact stays, this war gives favor to McCain.

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Back off topic,

Given the intelligent capacities of the US military, which are akin to seeing the whole map on VU, given that, there's no way the US didnt know what Russia was capable of, and it's naive to not think, given Bush family history, that Bush Co didnt encourage Georgian paramilitary in their agressions.

Check out Boy Bush's behavior at the Olympics.  Smiling and saying trite things like "why cant we all just get along during the olympics"  is not characteristic of someone who is learning details of an unfolding crisis.  And the Georgian Pres was on his way to Olympics via Italy?  Convenient place to stay tuned to military events back home.  And then look at how quickly Georgian troops were pulled from their active duty posts in Iraq.

For the skeptic, the main Q then is why would the US encourage Georgian paramilitary  IMO, Mr. Brain laid it all bare for us.  WAR energizes the base of the Republican Party.

Why wouldn’t Russia want to control the old Soviet States? In doing so they can sequester 25% of the oil production in Europe. Refer back to the words of the Russian Pres towards the other States in the area. To get the idea of the attitude they are displaying on the world stage.

Some people need to get the book 1984 out of there heads. The book was referring to Totalitarian societies not Democratic Republics. One of the Founding Fathers (Cant remember which one) of the U.S Const. stated that prolonged war in a Republic was impossible. We are seeing this right now in the U.S. Public fortitude for prolonged conflict is very low even with the historically low causality rates. So "war as a instrument of manipulation and control" is not a very good argument or Conspiracy.

People need to get over the BDS (Bush Derangement Syndrome). Except the fact that the U.S is fighting the wars the rest the world refused too. Iraq has been a pain in the world’s side for decades and the U.S finally stepped up and acted. Terrorism has been a dirty little secret for decades as well and America was the first to call it for what it is and act.

As to the point of war being an economy booster is also easily refutable. As we can all see that the war has been a considerable drain on the U.S economy. And the Georgian conflict rose gas prices even further.

Mr. Buk, your logic is hard to follow. why would Bush want Georgia to get involved in a conflict with Russia if the U.S knew of Russias capabilities? Yes, the U.S did rush Georgian forces back home at the request of Georgia, after the Russian Invasion. You seem to be doing a little double speaking.

My only problem is that Conspiracy Theories are for people who dont have a very high IQ. So they have to come up with illogical explanations for other peoples actions. Like UFOs or Lizard people. For example, people who cuss alot because their vocabl. is so small they cant otherwise express themselves.  

Last: Obama has dropped in the polls because he is a socialist tool. If you follow U.S Politics you would have been exposed to his numerous ties to domestic terrorist, socialist and communist. He has some very strange bedfellows and that is starting to scare people. You see, we in America arent drawn to people because they can speak well or shout empty rhetoric of "change" or "hope". We look at things that have actual substanance, such as voting history, experience, and Ties. Obama has 2 yrs in the senate where he has not passed one bill that he headed. He is known as the most liberal democrate in the senate (U.S is a conservative country by the worlds standards), and has ties to Domestic Terrorist. The only reason why Obama isnt more behind in the race is Media preference towards him. He is the Messiah after all <Sarcasm>

-Sorry for the long post, it is me VS. alot of other people.-

Lol, thanks Dreadlord for the advise. Since you know me so well you hit the nail on the head. <More sarcasm> It seems from the comments made in this thread, i am the only one (other than maybe Duca, even though i disagree with him) that has any knowledge of history and current events that would make one capable of forming an opinion. In the same regard i can say to you to do some unbiased research of your own and stop relying on BBC and CCN for your own opinion. I form mine on facts and personal experience. If you know a better way let me know.

You are right that Georgia started the war. ( I never said they didnt) I only argue that Russia meddled in an internal conflict of Georgias and where in the wrong in doing so.

I dont try to come across as knowing what people think but niether do the other commenters, so use your complaint unbiasly. I am only trying to bring a logical counter aurgument to an illogical thread.

Why you quotationing Them and THey. Are you ensinuating that there are no terrorist, that they are made up by some one?

The argument you raise is an ideological one. One that says if I leave them alone maybe they will go away. One that has shown to be just as dangerous as the one you just presented. Yes, if you kill terrorist where they live then they will hide behind civilians and civilians will get hurt as well. Doesnt that tell you something about the terrorist though? Cowardly hiding behind innocent people. Niether is good but one is better. I believe that killing them is better than not. No one wants civilians to die, no one. But name one war that had that.... Where those wars not worth fighting because innocent people may die? Should the world have allowed hitler and japan to do as it pleased in fear that retaliation may injure innocents in the process?

no according to US every civilian that dies is actualy a terrorists.
unfortunately they dont often have a weopon on them.

this war is more like the vietnam war. its a war again the people of a reigon not their dictators.

ow and hitler killed the jews after the US landed on europe.
or the ones in russia after russia attacked germany backed bye US.
they went to camps when US declared war.

If you ask me personaly i think those things coused the holocaust more then they prevented it.

I think Dreadlord is Cobra's lil sycophant in training.

Mr. Stones, there are some things troubling me on your arguments but before that i need to quote myself

"War is also a "traditional" ( - believed to be a - ) driving force to sleepy economies."

Never believed on it though (my country took part on some UN missions and it's not doing any good to us other than to train our military and test tactics on a almost real scenario and reviving PART of our weapon industry- some would consider it worthwhile), that's why i wrote that way

Now, back to the questions. You pointed out that US started to fight wars that the rest of the western world avoided to but, ignoring all the 11/09 conspiracy theories, do you believe that the government really had reasons to be sure that Iraq was about to have or already had mass-destruction weaponry?

It's counter-intuitive to assume that they really did because in the end that turned out appearing to be as a big rhetoric to cause fear and justify the real reasons. This miss-understanding helped to cause Blair's fall, but when Bush's time to face the electorate once again came, the axis of evil emerged and the iminence of a major agression was used over and over again what could be used as an argument supporting that the "war" is more related to maneuver public opinion than to really save the world. I am not saying that terrorists do not exist or that they didnt pose a threat to us (and US), just conjecturating that it could have been overestimated at that time.

 I do have some other questions, but let's keep one at a time.

Well Duco, there is no argument that the war on terror was used as a campaign argument. But only in the since that it needed it be fought and that it existed. Which obviously the Am. public agreed with. It is pretty clear that the WMD argument was false but i am not arguing that. The argument i was waging was the legality of the war which some people where saying was illigal or the same as Russia invading Georgia. It is COMPLETELY different. The U.S had all the right in the world to reinvade Iraq due to its noncompliance of the 16 U.N resolutions and Gulf War Treaty.

Also if you go back pre iraq war then you will see that it wasnt just America that thought Iraq has persuing WMD. Most the world did. I know you are going to say about France, Germany and some others but let me state that those countries where highly invested in Iraq oil and Iraq owed them money in the form of huge debts. So they dont count.

Last point, Axis of Evil was established well be for reelection. It was established during a State of The Union Address. Also just yesterday Pres. of Iraq called Bush a Hero for liberating the country. Just saying. I think there are alot of Iraqis that appreaciate the Am sacrafice over there. Are they less deserving of the right to freedom?

Dreadlord, your arguments are bad and kind of immature.

You talk of truth Dreadlord but may I ask where this "truth" comes from? Have you been to Iraq? Have you served in the American army? Do you even know anyone that has? I can tell you that i do. Very personally. So dont talk of "truths" that you have no idea about. You talk of soldiers not a country but your generalizations include all soldiers, and that is completly inacurate.

bad things have happened in the war there is no doubt but those are exceptions not the rule. It is hard to keep everyone in check at all times. Some will act up. But that doesnt mean that "all they do is kill whoever they are ordered to kill without hesitation,". You are speaking from your ass here. You have no idea what it is that you are talking about but only repeating what you have heard from others that equally have no clue.

Lots of bias here....

since Afghanistan run by the Taliban declared war on the U.S and flew planes into U.S buildings then i also believe that that is a legal right to defend itself.

It was not the Taliban Government that attacked the USA. There was also no actual ATTACK. Only terrorist action. Plenty are done by the USA in other countries. Check www.cia.org under historical documents. Plenty of guerrilla fighting and false-flag missions.

Also Brian these were the same tactics that Hitler used before WWII. Attacking small countries that Germany claimed historical ties. We all know how that turned out.

Brain, not brian.
As in, Russia is attacking? What are you talking about? Wasn't it Georgia?

Duco, so far you are the only one here with a brain! Bringing up the Kosovo situation is a logical point. SoYes, Kosovo is probably a big player in the Russian aggression on Georgia. but this is just one reason why Russia attacked they were looking for any reason really look at their aggression towards all the other former soviet states. They are trying to reestablish their dominance in the region now that they have a little oil money in their pockets.

Again, there is no Russian Aggression.

How about YOU ALL stop being anti-russian/anti-socialist crazy nuts.

Stop reading only reuters and CNN. There's no more biased newspapers than those..

And again, think. Don't just express what your idol tells you...

Mr. Stones, you are nearing the ideological bias when you keep saying that the us government took the lead of a fight that was being ignored by the western world.

Kosovo, Afghanistan and all the other us military interventions AND economic (dis)orientations (through "multilateral" organizations like BID and IMF or even by it's own) cant be seen by conscious minds as heroism. It would be a limited view of the world. <- I am not taking any "sides" here, just being realistic. though the (dis) was a touch of sarcasm

Why isnt it a heroic act? Are you imply Duca that Afganistan and Iraq didnt need intervention? You seem to be saying that they where better off before American help. I am I right? If so you have to ignore facts. The Iraqi economy is higher than under saddam. Oil output higher, they have elected government, all religious sects are being represented. Same goes for Afganistan. Do you even know some of the things that the former Taliban Govt used to do to the people in that country? If you did you wouldnt of said what you did.

Just name for me one other country that has contributed more to the betterment of these above countries and many more throughout the world and history. U.S has spent trillions of dollars in Iraq and Afganistan bringing freedom to millions of people. Have done this consistanly throughout history. (Above is a biased view of it all i know but is historically true.)

Maybe this is what Am should do for the next decade. After Iraq and Afganistan is won and sustainable by their own governments i would like to see Am. just back off helping the world militarily and Financially. WHile the world bites the hand that feeds them (America) I would like us to pull that hand back and stop. Give the dreadlords and Brains in the world what they want. See what would happen. If the world comes to us for help well just say "we would but we dont want to hurt anyones feelings so well just use our capitol at home." That means Palistine would starve, Egypt economy would falter, south Korea would fall to the north. Kuwait, Suadia Arabia would fall to Iran. Russia would recapture it former states, Europe would no longer have the U.S military at its call so the U.N would be worthless, Nato would be worthless. That means that Europe is now vunerable to attack. So they would have to build their own miltaries. The list only goes on. (There would be some negative affect to Am as well but not near as bad as the rest the world.. let Europe deal with Iran as well. lets see how much influence theyll have then). Only regret would be Israel being left to the wolves. But hey that is what the Dreadlords and Brains want.

Dreadlord, Brain, you still havent said what you consider "neutral". I am dieing to know. I have read many books on these issues so i just need to know what the people with such unbiased opinions such as yourselfs garnered them from.

"btw not to be racist it think common sence is not simulated in the US at all. :P." Agian Dreadlord your generalizations and bigoted remarks only show your biased opinion and ignorance.

How can i talk to you if i cant even say stop killing people without you interpret it like stop helping people, and go all crazy on me.

Killing people is not helping them.

Brain, you bring up good points but leave out many details. The conflict is much ,ore complex than what you indicate. Russia was moving troops into Ossetia, Roadside bombs went off in Georgia hitting police cars and a small fight broke out. Russia was giving out free Russian passports to Ossetians so that they could fall under Russian protection. Many people believe that a Russian invasion was planned in April. the civilian casualties you point out have been proven to be over stated by Russian Propoganda. The real count is believed to be much lower. Both sides civilians where killed by the way.

Georgia launched its military offensive on the 8th and on the 9th The U.S was already trying to get Delegates into the country to order a peace agreement. (Keep in mind that Ossetia is Georgian Territory and Russia interferance was being justified by Russia as protection of its citizens hence the free passports.)

U.S didnt invade Iraq over Iraq Genocide but over broken peace treaties. So that is hardly internal. If you break a peace treaty then that country has the right to continue the fight. Again refer to the 16 UN resolutions on Iraq.

Your last statement i agree with. Research is the only way.

If you're going to make an argument, at least use proper spelling...and capitalization...

This is from WIKIPEDIA, under the voice of TALIBAN.

Alhough there is no evidence that the CIA directly supported the Taliban or Al Qaeda, some basis for military support of the Taliban was provided when, in the early 1980s, the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Interservices Intelligence Agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the ISI assisted the process of gathering radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for the foreign Muslim volunteers. The U.S. poured funds and arms into Afghanistan, and "by 1987, 65,000 tons of U.S.-made weapons and ammunition a year were entering the war.

(And read well the first phrase, it says ".. no evidence that CIA *supported*... [but] some basis for military *was provided*)

@Stones,
Again, there were UN resolutions that stated the peacekeeping of Russia inside South Ossetia. Georgia BROKE THE UN RESOLUTIONS. Under your assumptions, this makes it totally legit to actually make a full scale war.

Furthermore, I just checked this nice article that talks about Iraq war.
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_war ]
There are no UN resolutions that have been broken about Peace.
Only 'fragile' resolutions were the ones about Weapons of Mass Destruction, which have not been found. Ever. German Intellgence Agency prooved it (and they certainly are not philo-taliban or w/e).

Please tell me your source about the 16 UN resolutions.

lol yeah Wiki is a great site to go to for some info...but if you used it as a source for anything professional you would get flamed...college hates Wiki XD

ROTFL @ Stones Throw

"Yes, Brain you should use reliable sources. Look it up and the U.N site. It is very well documented. i dont have to even try to argue this point just look it up. you can start with the Peace agreement signed by Iraq after the war. then refer to the resolutions."

That is just lame man. You don't even know your sources.

Is this the resolution you talk about?
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_Security_Council_Resolution_1441 ]
It's the same I talked about. It's about Weapons of Mass Destruction. WMD. They weren't found in Iraq. No production, no stockpile.

Wikipedia is a rather good source since IT CITES ALL OF ITS SOURCES, so you can just go and verify it if you don't believe me/wiki.

You do seem to have a very warped view of world events. may i ask where you live? i think you know where I stand by now, I am just curious about you and Brain. Just wandering cause your opinions and knowledge of world history is not one in line with world accepted historical fact. And things that arent verifiable seem to be factual informantion for you two.

Uh, that's what we should tell YOU mate. You don't seem to trust anything except what some mass media tells you. Hate russia. Hate iraq. Don't trust wikipedia. America is right, everybody else is wrong.
Is that all you hear and agree with?

I've lived in 3 countries around the world.
What does it matter?

This is a topic about McCain/Georgian conflict.
Personally I don't like war nor death, and it seems that McCain actually likes war for some reason I can only imagine (he's still angry at those Vietnametes that captured him long ago and now wants revenge? Or is it about the same old money?)