A big debate, on the chat box!

A big debate, on the chat box!
00:33:12 Jan 17th 08 - Lord of The Morning: "" For a discussion of certain parallels between the Osiris cult and Christianity, where "any theory of borrowing on the part of Christianity from the older faith is not to be entertained, for not only can it not be substantiated on the extant evidence, "" Might I say .... Christmas.25th december. The day Jesus was born. Before christ, it was celebrated Dies Natalis Solis Inviciti ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dies_Natalis_Solis_Invicti ). When the sun god was born. Coincidence? Might be. though there's some other holidays that somehow happen to be on the same date(or very close to in time) to other pagan holidays. Which could possibly mean that the dates were specifically chosen to keep the pagan people happy and not changing too much the calendar, with the introduction of a new religion. Yes, I do believe that the Christian Religion was founded by humans to gain something someway. Maybe politically, maybe business. Not saying it's bad though..
05:51:30 Jan 17th 08 - Mr. Gnisis Mininus: oh, the early catholic church tried to discourage the practicing of pagan holidays by laying christian ones over them. Not a sound practice, but that doesn't mean they became part pagan by doing so. Next argument, please.
05:59:19 Jan 17th 08 - Mr. Gnisis Mininus: listen. You take the opinions and speculations of certain "scholars" and post them as the final decree. I didn't post the similarities you spoke of because I was being concise and highlighting the key differences. Also, the life and martyrdom of Christ are predated by old testament scriptures. Also, if the Romans and religious authorities of the times were so very against Christ, they would have refuted the stories spreading by the thousands in the heart of Judaism itself. There is no evidence of this story you, or some "scholar," has concocted other than speculation and guessing.
06:09:35 Jan 17th 08 - Mr. Gnisis Mininus: How can you make the claim that Persian religions were "sweeping the nation" of Israel, especially under a Roman occupation?! The Jewish people were extremely proud of their unique monotheistic God and extremely faithful to that religion, (hence it's existance and practice even today). You are acting as if Cultis Christi invented Judaism, a religion with written records thousands of years predating other religions' records, and an oral tradition thousands of years before that. Christ was a Jew. Jews worshipped Yahweh, Jehovah, or as we say today, God. That is the only God any jew worshipped. Mortal worship was strictly anathema. The first of the ten ancient commandments to the Israeli people. "I am the Lord your God. You shall worship no other God but me."
06:22:05 Jan 17th 08 - Mr. Bayushi Clamps: the early catholic church tried to discourage the practicing of pagan holidays by laying christian ones over them. Not a sound practice, but that doesn't mean they became part pagan by doing so It absolutely does in the sense that there are reasons which predate Christianity for celebrating a certain festival, or more importantly, a certain man. They didn't invent the main points about Jesus and we can trace who did. Doesn't it bother you that we see this? Doesn't it raise any alarm bells? I didn't post the similarities you spoke of because I was being concise and highlighting the key differences That bothered me because by citing differences I was concerned you didn't understand my original point. It isn't like they took the story of Osiris or any other god, erased his name and replaced it with Christ. I mean like they were inspired by some of the neat stories about other man-gods and so told the same stories about the guy they thought deserved them. Don't you see that if all these stories about Christ came from somewhere else that it means they most likely weren't true about him either? Like you don't believe in Osiris do you? Then why Jesus when he is just a later knock-off? Also, the life and martyrdom of Christ are predated by old testament scriptures Even your closest allies, the Jews, completely disagree with you on this. They believe in the same god and think you're nuts and a sinner for saying this. This is the worst piece of "speculation and guessing" to appear lately. Also, if the Romans and religious authorities of the times were so very against Christ, they would have refuted the stories spreading by the thousands in the heart of Judaism itself If you don't think the Romans had a problem with Christ then you not only have never read a history book but not the bible either. What in the world did you mean to say here? There is no evidence of this story you, or some "scholar," has concocted other than speculation and guessing. Look I'm not going to copy down entire history books for you. I was pointing out what I thought they taught you in school but maybe you had forgotten. The point is, what I said is what they teach in school. It isn't "some scholar" it is the general thread of history as we know it. Granted you won't see this in elementary or high school either, ESPECIALLY not in the USA, but to take a real education in history is to have learned this in year one.
06:31:06 Jan 17th 08 - Mr. Gnisis Mininus: The Romans did have a problem with christianity, thus the "decimation" of Christian Roman Legions (ever wonder where we get this word?), but the fact that christianity still grew and thrived in the midst of this is the point I was making. The Jews don't refute the beliefs. They refute the person. It's not what but whom for them. Some of them didn't believe Yeshua (jesus) was the one they were waiting for.
06:35:19 Jan 17th 08 - Mr. Bayushi Clamps: How can you make the claim that Persian religions were "sweeping the nation" of Israel, especially under a Roman occupation?! Because they were? They had mostly done their influencing before the romans ever got there mind you, but the cultures were mixing heavily ever since alexander united asia minor. You are acting as if Cultis Christi invented Judaism, Ok I really don't see how you got that. I didn't say it and I repeatedly tried to clarify to the contrary. I don't know what else to say to you about this. Christ was a Jew... other God but me. Fantastic. In this part you tell me Jesus worshiped god. So what? I was saying the stories about Jesus come from other mythologies so what is your point?
06:44:46 Jan 17th 08 - Mr. Bayushi Clamps: The Romans did have a problem with christianity, thus the "decimation" of Christian Roman Legions (ever wonder where we get this word? Nope, not lately, because this is basic roman history. They decimated many legions for dishonouring themselves or losing their standards. It meant to kill every tenth man randomly. What are you getting at? The Jews don't refute the beliefs. They refute the person Again I have failed to be clear. I don't think the Jews are right about anything religious other than that Jesus was not the messiah. I don't care what they or any other religious person thinks about gods. My point is not "Jesus is not the correct god" or "he isn't the only god"; it is "jesus was one of many gods, all having similar myths about them, so they are obviously nothing more than that." Seriously, the story has a traceable history not unlike Goldylocks, the three little pigs or Santa. They start somewhere, they catch on, then they become a cultural icon. If it started as a story to scare kids, it ends in a monster like vampires (who some people still think are real); if it started wise-man, then it ends in a religion.
13:47:07 Jan 17th 08 - Lord of The Dawn: "The Romans did have a problem with christianity, thus the "decimation" of Christian Roman Legions (ever wonder where we get this word?" actually decimation = destroying or killing a large part of the population (literally every tenth person as chosen by lot) Or what word did you mean? O_o
00:50:17 Jan 18th 08 - Duke Luta Mor: Good debating, Bayushi. I've simmered down in this debate because, to be honest, I've never really studied this stuff all that extensively. There's just one thing I have a comment about though. "Granted you won't see this in elementary or high school either, ESPECIALLY not in the USA, but to take a real education in history is to have learned this in year one." Well, not really, but it's usually not a required part of education for graduation. In my school there was "The Bible as Literature," "World Mythology," "World Religions," and history is scattered here and there kindergarten through senior year, though it's usually 1450+ that's studied the most.
15:42:54 Jan 18th 08 - Mr. Bayushi Clamps: Well thanks but it kinda has that "first place on mantrax" feel, if you know what I mean. I'm glad to see you actually got exposure to some of this in high school but I'm very concerned about who's teaching it. It doesn't take a history, classics or lit degree to teach that in highschool, just an education degree =/
19:15:54 Jan 18th 08 - Duke Luta Mor: If you're worried about Christian Fundamentalists teaching their personal opinion and spewing out Christian propoganda, no, I didn't get any of that. Not to say no one has, though... but despite what people may think there is a clebeepperation of church and state that's only growing wider with time.
20:33:54 Jan 18th 08 - Mr. Bayushi Clamps: Really? What state (country maybe?) are you speaking of?
22:37:00 Jan 18th 08 - Mr. Architect: Just so we are clear: Christmas.25th december. The day Jesus was born. It is believed that Jesus was actually born in the late winter/spring, so more February or March, maybe even April. December 25th just happens to be the day that we celebrate it.
04:25:41 Jan 19th 08 - Duke Luta Mor: I am speaking of the country you were speaking of:&nbbeeperica. I'm not going to be specific as to which state I live in, but I will say most instances where a school tries to teach creationism, remove evolution from the science agenda, etc. is far more likely below the "bible belt" (ie, the southern states.)
20:35:37 Jan 19th 08 - Lord of The Dawn: Age of the Earth according to the biblical research I just did: Hypothesis: 1. God created earth in 7 days, and on the 7th day he 'created' Adam. 2. The following text is true: Jesus was the son of Joseph, who was the son of Heli, who was the son of Matthat, who was the son of Levi, who was the son of Melchi, who was the son of Jannai, who was the son of Joseph, who was the son of Mattathias, who was the son of Amos, who was the son of Nahum, who was the son of Esli, who was the son of Naggai, who was the son of Maath, who was the son of Mattathias, who was the son of Semein, who was the son of Josech, who was the son of Joda, who was the son of Joanan, who was the son of Rhesa, who was the son of Zerubbabel, who was the son of Shealtiel, who was the son of Neri, who was the son of Melch, who was the son of Addi, who was the son of Cosam, who was the son of Elmadam, who was the son of Er, who was the son of Jesus, who was the son of Eliezer, who was the son of Jorim, who was the son of Matthat, who was the son of Levi, who was the son of Symeon, who was the son of Judas, who was the son of Joseph, who was the son of Jonam, who was the son of Eliakim, who was the son of Melea, who was the son of Menna, who was the son of Mattatha, who was the son of Nathan, who was the son of David, who was the son of Jesse, who was the son of Obed, who was the son of Boaz, who was the son of Salmon, who was the son of Nahshon, who was the son of Amminadab, who was the son of Arni, who was the son of Hezron, who was the son of Perez, who was the son of Judah, who was the son of Jacob, who was the son of Isaac, who was the son of Abraham, who was the son of Terah, who was the son of Nahor, who was the son of Serug, who was the son of Reu, who was the son of Peleg, who was the son of Eber, who was the son of Shelah, who was the son of Cainan, who was the son of Arphaxad, who was the son of Shem, who was the son of Noah, who was the son of Lamech, who was the son of Methuselah, who was the son of Enoch, who was the son of Jared, who was the son of Mahalaleel, who was the son of Cainan, who was the son of Enos, who was the son of Seth, who was the son of Adam, who was the son of God. Note: God is Jesus great75-father. 3. All of them had the son at around 20-40 years of age. Thus an average of 30. 4. Jesus was born in Year Zero. ---------- We thus deduce: 7530 = 2250 years of genealogy 2250 + 2008 = 4258 so earth is around 4258 years old. * if all had their sons at 40 years of age: 75*40 = 5008 years old is the earth.
21:12:20 Jan 19th 08 - Mr. Bayushi Clamps: Source?
21:22:37 Jan 19th 08 - Dark Lord Finwe: rofl thats the most retarded proof of the age of the earth ive ever seen
22:50:18 Jan 19th 08 - Lord of The Dawn: Source - the bible, Luke If you actually paid attantion, you'd notice that I'm always disproving the bible... so that was not proof, just how old earth is according to the bible. Now onto disproving it: Jesus is almost always said to be son of Mary. But according to the bible, he is not the son of Joseph, but of god himself.
01:55:40 Jan 20th 08 - Mr. Gnisis Mininus: Lord of the Dawn? did you change your name? died or summat? you don't ever offer a reasonable point...just saying.
02:35:35 Jan 20th 08 - Mr. Bayushi Clamps: I guess his point was that it is silly to believe the bible wholesale? That was my first thought on reading that.
10:36:44 Jan 20th 08 - Lord of The Dawn: The fact that the Bible (that is 'perfect' , god's words etc...) contradicts itself doesn't make it too trustworthy, does it? and yes I did die...
10:59:22 Jan 20th 08 - Mr. Architect: Where does the bible contradict itself, gimme some refrences.
16:45:52 Jan 20th 08 - Mr. Bayushi Clamps: The thing he just posted was one and in fact he even explained it, Arch.
19:24:34 Jan 20th 08 - Duke Luta Mor: Well, one "contradictory" element of the bible is how Judas died. He is said to have both hanged himself and to have jumped off a cliff. Yes, one could say he did both but only died by one, that perhaps hanging himself failed so he jumped off a cliff afterward. However, this is synthesizing the story beyond what the bible actually says.
03:21:28 Jan 22nd 08 - Dreadlord Brent Corrigan: On a Sidenote, the average quality of the articles on Wikipedia has been proven to far surpass that of for example the Britannica or Brock Haus. This from one of germanies most renowned magazines (Spiegel I think). Not only where the articles more up to date but also a lot more detailed on virtually all topics that where tested.
03:29:29 Jan 22nd 08 - Dreadlord Brent Corrigan: http://www.spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/0,1518,521457,00.html =)
03:42:14 Jan 22nd 08 - Dreadlord Brent Corrigan: Since I�m here anyway I may as well comment on what I have read during the last 2 odd hours. Again I am apalled by the extremes our local bible lobbyists go to to impose their order of thinking upon us non-believers. The sheer arrogance seeping out from in between nonsensical rambling and crude attempts at discrediting any source except church-approved ones is baffling. Somebody in here summed the bible up nicely. It�s not so much a recounting of actual events but a frame work for a happy life. With general guidelines for what is acceptable behavior and what is not, wrapped up in enough mysticism to appeal to a large part of the population. All else I have seen from you "faithfull" is a stoic believe in that everything you are told by your church is the truth. No matter how many times the truth has been revised (the earth is a disc, eh?) to keep the church somewhat credible. Nothing of this has anything to do with faith in a higher being. To me the relation between any man, woman or child with "god" is of a personal nature and has no need for old dusty doctrine. So please take your longwinded posts about how bad science is somewhere else, anybody with a brain sees your arguement is thin, at best. I dont need you to tell me in what to put my faith and I am fairly certain Jesus would agree wholeheartedly to that sentiment if one tries to apply the general idea behind the bible.
04:46:07 Jan 22nd 08 - Mr. Haywood Jablowme: Dark Lord Finwe Report 1/20/2008 4:22:37 AMrofl thats the most retarded proof of the age of the earth ive ever seen I agree. its retardedly funny
15:18:04 Jan 22nd 08 - Lord of The Dawn: Yeah, OMFG its just so ROFL funny that I don't know what to say maybe something along the lines that "It's not a proof, but earth's age according to the bible" If you would actually read what it says. "Age of the Earth according to the biblical research I just did: ...." according to Jesus Christ! arose
16:45:02 Jan 22nd 08 - Mr. Bayushi Clamps: I didn't know that bit was in the bible. The funny part is one of the guys supporting the bible in this thread said the age of the earth isn't in the bible. Oh well, I guess I shouldn't be suprised that if they don't read history/science books then they likely don't even read the bible. Isn't my face red now =p
18:46:30 Feb 10th 08 - Mr. Thunder: Read the "Did Jesus Exist" thread for an explanation of Christmas, also there was no year zero. Jesus was actually born in about the year 5 BC. When Dionysus the Little remade the calendar in the 5th Century AD he made a mathematical error that was never fixed. One can date the Earth with the Bible, but the question is...during those first 7 days, how long was a day? The Earth and organization of the universe was just being created. We assume that each day was 24 hour because that is what we know...What if the first day was 10 million years?
19:41:16 Feb 10th 08 - Mr. Arvious IIII: That is one of the most challenging questions there is... Also. see my heated debate there too!
19:48:05 Feb 10th 08 - Mr. Clamps The Dishonoured: Oh ffs....even the vast majority of Christians don't believe that story. Most think Jesus' miracles are true but quit with the hocus pocus right there because they know it is silly. Now we have another teacher in schools reviving this? We assume that each day was 24 hour because that is what we know...What if the first day was 10 million years? I know, since we're just individuals with no authority deciding what the bible REALLY meant I submit a few of my own improvements. Mary wasn't a virgin like it says. She just never had relations with Joseph so no one knew she was a prostitute, bringing into our world the king of the crack-babies. Of course he didn't come back from the dead like it SAYS, nope he just lives in our hearts, or maybe our pants, I dunno. Ok what else does it say...ah the flood. Ok it wasn't a flood that washed away all sinners it was a rain that washed away some dead leaves and it was the end of the world for, oh I dunno, an ant colony. Ok and let's keep going with our own ideas of what the bible meant to say hmm... ok I got one, when Jesus turned water into wine actually he just showed up at a bad party with some booze and saved the day... maybe there was a pinata...NO....there DEFINITELY was a pinata, they just forgot to add that in because back then no one knew what a pinata was. Okok I'm just warming up...what else to just add in there however I feel like it?..... Have I made myself clear?
20:15:33 Feb 10th 08 - Mr. Thunder: Wow... I cannot believe I wasted as much effort as I did trying to explain things... Clearly you are a buffoon "I Know" lol all hail the mighty Clamps ruler of worm food...
20:55:41 Feb 10th 08 - Duke Ulgrin The Bastard: Jesus spoke in parables, did he not? Where the stories may or may not have been true, but that was hardly the point, the idea was what you learned from it? Is it impossible for the bible to be doing the same? Not every absolute damn thing is meant to be taken at word-to-word value.
21:51:51 Feb 10th 08 - Mr. Clamps The Dishonoured: Exactly, it can be taken lots of ways, so why try to come up with things like "maybe the days lasted 10 million years"? Why not simply accept that the 7 days is crap and get on with it. After all the stories of miracles and wonderment we are left with some life lessons. Those lessons are learned by people of other religions and other cultures without the bible. Also they are maintained by atheists of all makes. What use then, is there in trying to grasp at the last few threads of bible which still hold up? Just be good people, be good to each other, and live on; who needs a bible to come to that conclusion?
22:02:18 Feb 10th 08 - Mr. Thunder: Who needs the Bible Clamps? More than anyone YOU DO!!!
22:03:06 Feb 10th 08 - Mr. Thunder: Nice post Duke...I hear you and agree. Clamps may not, but I do...
22:59:48 Feb 10th 08 - Mr. Clamps The Dishonoured: I've read the bible just like a handful of other holy books and they really don't offer anything. They're just ancient sources like Pol. Thuc. Dio. and the like. They have uses but they don't make me happier. I'm perfectly happy and well-adjusted without looking at it again.
00:42:49 Feb 11th 08 - Mr. Arvious IIII: well, read it again, because,I'm getting tired or telling you the truth in two places where you are acting ignorant, I'll scold you in 'Did Jesus Exist' only...
01:07:48 Feb 11th 08 - Mr. Thunder: Go get him Arvious... somehow he feels he has a point...
21:19:37 Feb 11th 08 - Duke Ulgrin The Bastard: Well, I'm actually going to take my idea of parables one step further. The bible, in entirety, can be viewed as one big parable. Does it matter if God and Jesus exist? After all, the ultimate lesson is for people to be good to each other. As for Clamps, let's assume that he's a nice jolly guy in real life. It's just no one likes to have a bunch of people come mobbing up at you to tell you something you already learned and tell you you don't know it already. The Bible, the Kuran--hell, even picture books--all teach the same basic lessons, don't they?
21:52:05 Feb 11th 08 - Mr. Clamps The Dishonoured: Ermm, well yeah for the most part I tend to attract people with a certain sense of humour. I tend to hang around the absurd humour and frankly for all the smiles and good times many people have from it I'll accept a few being offended. I have my friends in mind when I speak, not people for whom it actually takes hard work to not offend.
23:44:26 Feb 11th 08 - Mr. Arvious IIII: Same here... (not going to scold, restraining to scold... lol)
23:54:46 Feb 11th 08 - Mr. Clamps The Dishonoured: Thank you! I think we're getting somewhere =p
01:10:46 Feb 15th 08 - Mr. Ambrosias Arilyonis: lol! this topic is still going?
02:05:27 Feb 15th 08 - Mr. Arvious IIII: Nope! :-)
08:36:44 Feb 15th 08 - Duke Ulgrin The Bastard: Would you like to step back in, Ambrosias? :D
19:27:26 Feb 15th 08 - Mr. Clamps The Dishonoured: It was then it wasn't. It got hijacked by apparently a school teacher (though I'm starting to think he was putting me on and was really a teen) who just wanted to flame. I embarassingly got pulled into it. Although yeah the post count is up, the talk has gone NOWHERE...except that I was hoping some people would check out that video and comment but i know people have trouble with videos on here =p
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