Forums / Miscellaneous Discussions / Religious Extremist terror

saladin , lol little history

ottoman empire , mamluke , omoy , all those also , and after will be elmhdy , and the real jesus when he back ,

we didn't seprate our selves by our hands , britain and france did ,

Ok...back now.  Apparently missed alot.  Won't be able to post much though...but figured I would check in here.

There were many Muslim nations and empires between the 7th century AD, and 17th century AD.   I go no further due to the fact that those are the times that are most recognized as periods of war between "Muslim" and "Christian" nations.  In 1509 there was the battle of Diu, in which a fleet of Portugese ships defeated a unified Muslim fleet to rest control of the Indian Spice trade.

The fleet of Europeans was smaller, but defeated a more disorganized force.  The reason for the lack of organization was the general disagreement between Muslim commanders.  And further then this, was the reason why the Muslims...who had greater military strength in naval power, were unable to take back this control.

The reason for this was that the Turks soon after the battle invaded the Egyptians... both of these Muslim countries came to blows with each other.

Add to this the fact that during the time of the fall of Byzantine Empire(It did not happen overnight), Manuel II was nothing more then a puppet of the Muslim lords of the Ottomon Empire...and helped with troops in the wars between the various Muslims lords of the Turks, as well as their enemies...until his own personal attempt at rebellion.

The idea of Muslim unity is much like that of the European Union.  There is a common goal...but also each has their own agenda...and wishes to see it play out.  Due to this... the common goal tends to take a massive back seat.

We men are fickle creatures.

   Before you read: I am not condoning any type of violence weather it be political, religious or personal an less it is for self defence. This is a disclaimer for the people who would try to twist my words and make me seem like I am in favour and preach violence.

     I have read over a bit of this thread and I have to say, it’s filled with A LOT of misconceptions, mistakes and pure bias. Lets start of with all the military contradiction between terrorism and state terrorism. The USA state contradiction on terrorism has now entered military intervention number 73 since the Second World War; Number 73 being what they are doing in Lebanon right now: killing Palestinians. There are 470'000 Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, almost half a million, scattered in camps from the north to the south. We now know the number of the people who were driven out of the territory that became the Jewish state during the Naqba, the Catastrophe: the number of Palestinians driven out was 711'000, very far from 'a couple of thousand'. It is a very major number for a small nation. Some of them, not necessarily in that period, found their way to Lebanon. This is number 73 and the number of people killed in overt Pentagon-driven military action after the Second World War is now between 13 and 17 million. The number of people killed in covert action is at least 6 million. So you see, the US has killed more then Al-Qaeda or any other group in history that has been deemed evil ever killed. Yet still people here say complain about Islamic extremism when America a nation supposedly for peace…killed far more then extremists of any religion have ever killed combined.

    So saying that Islamic extremism is the number one killer in the world is wrong. And we haven’t even touched on the past and all the things the christen faith has done to pagans or anyone else who doesn’t except that Jesus died on the cross for there sins, wihich was, far worse in action and number then Islamic extremism is.

    As for Muslim unity, it’s nothing like how it use to be back under Saladin but it is more united then any other religion known to man at the present. Yes there is wars and such between different Muslim sates but that’s because the imperil powers of the west want to impose a sense of secularism on those countries due to the fact that in 30 years Muslim will be 40% of the worlds population. Never the less, the unity of Muslims (weather Shia or Sunni, Arab or non-Arab) is still strong and the rallying cry over Palestine remains a prime example.

  As for the rumour that Islam wants t dominate the world historically and recently that fact has been debated by historians and professors. For example, during the Ottoman Empire at the time of WW1 were Germany was about to fight the “Allies” for the first time, the ottomans wanted to stay out of it even though they had a lot of military power and economic influence. During that time the ottomans had two ships being built in Britain by a privet company (keep in mind that Britain and the ottomans were allies at this time period). It was originally beginning built in ottoman territory but due to a storm at the building port they had to move the construction of those ships and the closest port that could handle such a massive project was in Britain. So the ottomans asked Britain if it could use one of it’s ports to complete the building of these 2 ships. Britain happily agreed, but of course they demanded a hefty amount of money (almost as much as the ship was worth) for such a privilege to be granted. The ottomans of course paid up. But it was Britain who provoked the Ottomans buy stealing not one, but two of there state of the art war ships that cost billions (in relativity to now) to make and 3 months to build. It  was armed way beyond standards for it’s time. The crew that was ready to board it and sail it away was returned home and financial or any sort of compensation was not even mentioned. It is said that as soon as the news reached the ottomans, the signed an alliance treaty with the Germans the same day. Historians go as far as to claim that those ships were one of if not they most powerful ships built in that time period. Anyhow the ottomans got agitated by this as. The relations between Muslims and the west started to decline from there.

   Therefore it is false to assume that Islam or Islamic extremism is the provoker or the starter of conflicts when it is in fact only a response to the aggression towards the east/Islam that the west so openly hosts. A more recent example of this is The invasion of Iraq a sovereign country that had nothing to do, in fact disliked Bin laden and his organization and did not even have a single hint of Al-Qaeda or any sort of WMD’s (but it did have a huge oil reserve) weather they be chemical, biological or nuclear after the IAEA international inspections which was approved unanimously by the united nations except for the countries of England and America. The bush administration tried to convince the United nations that Saddam did in fact have WMDs because he used these High-tech mobile lads that were placed on top of the backs of huge super efficient trucks that would cost 10’s of trillions of dollars (way more then Saddam had if he was barely able to buy proper guns for his military). But when the UN dismissed this hypothesis conjured up by the Us and England as Superficial SC-FI, and officially told the US that if they attack Iraq it will be considered an illegal action by the UN, the US and Britain went along with there strike on Iraq and you know the rest of the story.

   I conclude by saying that assuming that Islamic extremist violence is the number one threat to freedom or is the number one killer in the world is false, and assuming that what America is doing to the world and especially in Iraq, all over the middle east is in the name of freedom and is beating back the extremists is one of the biggest mis-calculations you could make about the worlds political state because not only are more extremists being created abroad with the war in Iraq, but more people are becoming radicalized in the west and will be waiting to strike at the west not from abroad, but from within. But that is another tale for another time.

CASE CLOSED

Chamillionaire, especially I would like you to provide your source for the claim: "The number of people killed in covert action is at least 6 million."

This kind of "covert action" would require for example something like 60'000 separate covert operations killing 100 people each. That would mean three separate operations daily killing 3 x 100 people, every single day since the WW2.

How exactly do you kill 300 people a day for sixty years without getting caught? What kind of "covert action" are you talking about?

Oh yes... and the actual number one cause of death is not Islamic, Christian, or those darn Capitalist pigs of the West.

It is... dun...dun...dun.

Heart Disease (In 38 world countries) We are killing ourselves people.

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/causes.html#data_38

Ok sorry about that... I just wanted to add a little brevity. 

Mr. Mijamoto Mushashi Report 7/23/2007 2:11:19 AM

the arabs are just the same as the europeans, scattered states, looking to overpower their neighbours ... nothing more, nothing less,  they never had a huge strong empire (neither did europe for that matter).

Wasn't the Roman Empire a huge empire?

and for Chamillionaire , these are not holy sites nor holy books

nothin , just don't take press , as a good source , somtimes it's lies .

cuz jews controled most ,

i liked this photo's , nvm

Chamillionaire, it is not normal in a discussion to list tens of sources at one time, because that is not useful for the purpose of supporting the conversation. In particular, when you refer to the source of quoted figures, you should clearly specify which figure is from which book (or other source).

Almost anyone can put up a website, if they want, yes. But even more people can write a book, if they want to do it that way. The question is how you select the sites or books you read and use as a reference. There are lots of excellent and reliable sources on the web, e.g. respectable news agencies (both sides), government sites (both sides), universities, scientific institutions, international organizations (UN, WHO, WMO, etc). E.g. if the European Union publishes some of its documents on the Internet that doesn't make the documents any less credible.

Internet is just a means of delivering information. Thus it is a medium, not a source of information. If you think internet is a source, then you probably think paper is a source too? Well, that is not so. Sources are the people who produce the information, the people who create the sites and the books. When you are giving references, you give the names of the people or organizations who are the source, and dates when they produced the information. Of course, if you give a link to a web site, the people and/or organization and dates are probably already mentioned there. If they are not, then the source is still unspecified and all we have is a web address that alone is not a source reference. A source reference requires exact names of people and specific dates.

[Official comic side kick: For example, when religious people refer to their holy books, they often say the source of information is God and it often dates back to eternity. Personally I do not think some prophet, god or Santa Claus are very credible sources. Maybe it's the beard they are usually hiding in, or how they communicate in riddles or go ho ho, or how they can be in so many places at the same time, especially God and Santa.]

Furthermore, as a medium Internet has huge advantages over conventional media like paper and books. Still the credibility and/or apparent bias of the information depends on its sources and not on the means of delivery.

even wikipedia , example

ÇáÏíÇäÉ ÇáãÓíÍíÉ ÙåÑÊ ÈÈÏÇíÉ ÞíÇã ÇáãÓíÍ ÈäÔÑ ÑÓÇáÊå Ýí ÚÇã 25 ãíáÇÏí ÊÞÑíÈÇ ÍíË æáÏ ÇáÓíÏ ÇáãÓíÍ Ýí ÇáÓäÉ ÇáÎÇãÓÉ ÞÈá ÇáãíáÇÏ æ

it says here ,

the chrition relegion started when jesus started invite people into it , in year of 25 AD , the place he invite people was near when he was born , BECAUSE JESUS WAS BORN IN 5 BC

mate how can the jesus be born before even the date he was born in , lol

he got out before he was born !!!

anther mistake , or maybe it gives proofs

ÇáÃÑÖ ÇáíåæÏíÉ

"ÅÑÊÓ íÓÑÇÆíá"¡ Ãí ÃÑÖ ÝáÓØíä¡ åí ÇáØÑÝ ÇáËÇáË Ýí ÇáØÈÞÉ ÇáÍáæáíÉ ÇáíåæÏíÉ. Ýåí "ÃÑÖ ÇáÑÈ"¡ ÇáÊí ÊÝæÞ Ýí ÞÏÓíÊåÇ Ãí ÃÑÖ ÃÎÑì. æåí ÇáÃÑÖ ÇáÊí ÓíÚáä ãäåÇ ÇáãÓíÍ ÈÏÇíÉ ÇáÚÕÑ ÇáÃáÝí ÂÎÑ ÇáÒãÇä¡ æåí ÇáÊí ÊÍÑã ÇáÔÑíÚÉ ÇáíåæÏíÉ ÇáÚæÏÉ ÅáíåÇ ÞÈá ãÞÏã ÇáãÓíÍ.

it says

jews land ,

it's "israel land" ( i hate the first 2 words , they are hebrow ) , as it called palestine , it's the third thing jews belive in , cuz its god land , and so it have a holy more than any other land , and its the land which jesus will say  a new age , at last times , AND THE JEWISH RELEGION SAY THAT THIS LAND IS FORBIDDEN ON JEWS TILL JESUS COME

then if the jewish relegion say that this land is forbidden , why they are here ?

it's even not sence , if you want to take it the first come of jesus , then why jews were ther even before jesus is born

see wikipedia is stupid somtimes , and this is only mistakes i found in the arabic version  .

Mohammad Beidas, according to the Wikipedia article on Jesus it is estimated that he was born somewhere between 8-2 BCE. That is because the dates are given using the Gregorian calendar. This calendar was decreed in 1582 CE by Pope Gregory XIII. At that time they believed in the tradition and there was no historical research to question the exact year when Jesus was born. Apparently the tradition was incorrect and after more historical research Jesus now is believed to have born earlier. It's actually better to use "Before the Common Era" (BCE) instead of "Before Christ" (BC) to avoid confusion.

And your father is saying to you that "you are allowed to make mistakes, but you are not allowed to be a donkey", because he wants the message gets to you. Your father is talking to you, Mohammad, not us.

woow , i like my name , haha . so we are now in year of 2000 , cool

i prefer  , prince of darkness , or prince of legions ,

actually he was talking to my brother

once i heard about this era system , ( not in this game ) seriously , but i didn't understand how they name them or what is the time , tell me sakaal ? ( if you know )

your just a silly boy ... go to school, not koran-school, real school, where you learn real things, undistorted things.

so, i just have to agree with wath he's saying?    i'm so sorry to hurt all you believers feelings.      how do you think i feel if i read crap like that?    exactly the same arguement.     

alright, but you shouldn't say to someone to go to "real school not koran-school" thats just too horrible

religion is not an excuse for ignorance, it is not an excuse to deny facts, it is not an excuse for hate, it is not an excuse not to be reasonable, it is not an excuse to say all else is wrong, it is not an excuse to preach hate, it is not an excuse to distort history, it is not an excuse for anything ...

do you think i like bible-schools better?    they are even worse, as i think people should've smartened up by now ... the only excuse arabs have, is maybe their socio-economical situation (for the normal civilians atleast).

just when u think people are reaching an agreement more come to make it one big mess:D

you can believe what you want, but you can't be stupid ...

even mbeidas' dad knows that, nothing wrong with believing, but you must remain reasonable, logic ... acting on faith alone is very rarely the best reaction.

Mr. Mijamoto Mushashi Report 7/24/2007 6:46:44 AM

your just a silly boy ... go to school, not koran-school, real school, where you learn real things, undistorted things.

 actually we dont have koran schools anymore , ther is a little number of them but not as school , i go to what you name it real school .

actually these schools are better , cuz if you want to be a math teacher , why you study history in school ?

Mr. Sakaal II Report 7/24/2007 7:08:33 AM

Beidas family, it seems you have several people there writing using the same account? Ok, fine. Also it seems some of you are more proficient in English, which I find refreshing. There have been different calendars in use. The Julian calendar was taken into use in 45 BCE by Julius Caesar. You can get more information in Wikipedia. Click on the links on the calendar names in this post and the earlier one. Ms. Natalia, in this thread it has been argued that some religious books are easier to use as an excuse for violence than others. We have shown that the Old Testament and Qur'an are more violent than the New Testament and Tipitaka, for example.

i am the same man , lol god said :

"you people who belive in me aviod think of people bad , most of that think will get you to wrong" god is always truly say

my mom have cancer , also she dont know how to use computer , my dad don't even pray , to answer you but he know alot in islam , my brother is always working ,

for Ms. Natalia

well , most think we live in desert , most think we ride cammels , most think we fight with sowrds , most think we are barbarians , you people are barbarians , without mohamad , we wouldn't made our empire , and you would still under rule of stupids

here is a thing , we gave you algebra way , we tought you how to use suger , coffee , and salt , we gave you spices , without our country you would be

same vikings , same germans , no use of your minds

let these most belive in what you belive , god said : "no harm in relegion" god is always truly say , and so you < most > choosed hell , you may suffer , and dont think you wont die , look at people before us .

why are you telling me this? i already know, i'm not a christian or any other major religion, i do not jugde people by their religion, because i know how that feels. And i do not believe in hell or he devil. Just that everyone is equel and the cycle of life, i do not care who did what because that is trying to say "i'm better then you because i did this" rather then "i helped people by doing this", get my point yet people?

yeah right, we must thank the arabs for what we've become :-p,  the greeks did not exist, the romans didn't do a thing ...

if all people are equal ... then that would include jews aswell, wouldn't it?

All people are equal. Some are just more equal than others.

see, i'm right, i knew that! and they really do! ha!   and it's true becuase odin said it is :-p

then if you know how we live , why you said i go to koran school , and you just all agreed ,

sakaal , pyramids wasn't build for living in , they were graves ,

They were called Crypts...

no we are equel , who seprates us only in the judgment , is god , he seprates us into , hell people and paradise people .

romans , ha , they only wanted slaves from your countries , and greeks lol , they was busy writing troy war and then how the grand grand son of zeus , lol , come on ,

Romans - Busy taking over everything in sight, and having very epic stories about gladiators featuring Russel Crowe.

Greeks - Busy coming up with stupid reasons to go to war

"Hey, you stole Helen! Thats it! Gather the troops!"

sugar means sukar in arabic ,

suger eng

sukar arb

you dont need plato to tell you that you knew suger from us ,